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My Morals Are Better Than Yours

I've tried to avoid writing about steroids over the last year or so because it brings out the trait I hate most about sports writers. The self righteous "my morals are better than yours, and I'm the only person keeping baseball from becoming a cesspool" attitude. So, I'll try to keep this as objective as possible.

Mark McGwire getting only 23.5% of the votes for the Hall of Fame reveals what a joke this entire process is (crap, there went objectivity). It sets the incredibly dangerous precedent that if the BBWA decided that you used steroids, then you used steroids, and the Hall of Fame is not a place for you. The only signs we have of McGwire taking steroids is that Jose Canseco said he did, and that he's got some big-ol' muscles. Neither of which is exactly a smoking gun. McGwire has never tested positive for steroids, nor has he ever admitted to it.

The main thing that's brought up in regards to McGwire and steroids is his "I'm not here to talk about the past" speech. Now, it seems to me he was in a no win situation here. He says that he was on the juice, then there's no way he gets into the Hall (unless writers are even more hypocritical than I assume they are). If he says no, then we just call him a liar, and he's in the same situation. Which would you rather happen if you were McGwire? Would you rather he go through the "I never took steroids, period" speech that Palmiero went through? Maybe, we feel for that one hook, line, and sinker so maybe McGwire would be getting inducted with Ripken and Gwynn if he would have just done that. It seems like pleading the 5th was the best thing McGwire could have done if he actually was roided.

Now, I'm not naive. I believe Mark McGwire was on steroids, along with Sammy Sosa, Brett Boone, and several others, but I have no proof of this, so I can't hold it against them. You want to bring up steroids when Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield, or Alex Sanchez are going to be elected, that's fine, but keeping someone out of the Hall without any actual evidence is a very dangerous game.

What's also odd is how we decided who's a roider. Haven't we learned from people like Alex Sanchez, Mike Morse and Jason Grimsley that you don't have to be a big guy to be roided? Why don't we automatically assume Roger Clemens is on something, his career took a sudden turn for the better at age 40? How about Mike Piazza, he went from a man drafted as a favor to the best offensive catcher of all time, must have had some assistance somewhere. Cal Ripken Jr? No one can could play 2600 games without some form of assistance. How come when Ryan Howard hits 58 home runs we automatically assume he's clean? Why is Davey Johnson's sudden jump from five home runs to 43 in 1973 not more closely scrutinized? I don't believe these arguments, but the point is that anyone can be roided, and in almost every player's career you can find a point where you can say "yeah, he was probably on the juice." Why don't we give these players the same treatment. Steroids are a sad part of baseball's history, but guessing about who was on the juice when and destroying legacies is far more detrimental to the game than a vote for Mark McGwire ever could be.

Oh yeah, Bert Blyleven losing votes this year is a travesty, but I've given up that fight.

0 recs  |  Comment 22 comments

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speed
some have pointed out that speed use was rampant during the 70s and was an aid to help Charlie Hustle do that hustle.  

by soundchaser on Jan 9, 2007 3:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

McRoids
I have to believe that McGwire will eventually get elected to the HOF.  I don't believe one, two, three or however many years McGwire will have to wait to get into the HOF is as big of deal as you are making it out to be.  I think it is more of a protest vote.  I am not saying it's right or wrong as I don't really care all that much about the HOF since I don't have a vote.  One has to keep in mind that selection to the HOF is not done by jurors, sworn to uphold the law and the judge's instructions.  It is done by a flimsy group of sports writers, many who really shouldn't have a vote.  They don't have a solid guideline on why they should vote for or against a certain player.  It will only frustrate you if you put too much stock into these votes.  I see nothing wrong with not voting for a person for the HOF if you believe they were on roids.  As far as the Jason Grimsley's of the world, it doesn't matter, as they don't have the credentials to be seriously considered.  Other qustionable players will have their judgement day, but not by sworn jurors (keep in mind).
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 9, 2007 3:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Grimsleys matter. . .
because they demonstrate that there's no real way to tell who was doing it. Having a few hundred sports writers guess who might have been dirty, and should be punished for it, is not a reasonable system. They don't know who was doing it. They have no way, and never will, of finding out who was doing it.

Grimsleys also indicate that steroids might not be magic. That bad players on 'roids are still bad. We have no rational basis for guessing how big a part steroids played in Big Mac's 70 HR season. Or his career. There's no conversion algorithm.

Are sportswriters really that good at guessing? They're not, on the whole, all that good at discerning things that are obviously true. But guessing is their strong suit?

It's a dodge to say none of it matters. If you don't care, so be it, but that's not an argument.

by Andrew Shimmin on Jan 9, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

McGrimsley
Well, you for one said that you think McGwire was on steroids in your blog entry.  But like I said in my previous post the HOF voters are not sworn jurors and there aren't lawyers presenting evidence and expert witnesses.  So proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt is pretty meaningless.  Also, just because McGwire didn't make the grade this year, doesn't mean that he is forever locked out of the HOF.  Using your argument that we don't know for sure who did it and how much using roids actually helps performance, why is it such a travesty that many voters felt the need to wait before voting McGwire in.  You criticize sportswriters for guessing, yet you do the same thing.  By the way, I'm not dodging anything.  Just stating that it really doesn't bother me one way or the other if he gets in, but I do have an opinion.  Just not as strong as most.  That statement is not part of any argument, it's just a statement.    vr, Xei
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 9, 2007 4:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re
That's other Andrew, not me Xie so you are blending our two arguments together.

If you are assuming that McGwire is just going to be locked out for one year, then this is fine, just kind of pointless. I'm working on the assumption that he wouldn't get in, which I guess is a bit presumptous of me after going off on a rant about guessing.

I'm just operating on a innocent until proven guilty principle. I do believe that McGwire used steroids, but I have absolutely nothing to back this up. If I can't back up the claim, I can't hold it against him.

by Andrew on Jan 9, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More from the other Andrew--
What am I guessing about? I'm not guessing he'll never be admitted. I've made no prediction on that, either way. I haven't even decided if I care about it, yet.

And what difference does it make that the BBWAAers aren't jurors? Who said that beyond a reasonable doubt was the only acceptable standard? This is what I meant, calling indifference a dodge. Just because this isn't a capital murder case, doesn't mean we should ignore every precept of fair play. When I play chess with my computer, I don't capture its queen with my pawn on the first move, just because the game is inconsequential. What's the point of doing anything that way?

I'm saying: you want to have a rule that steroid users don't get in (or don't get in till they've done their time in purgatory), fine. I'd rather you didn't, but fine. But if you're going to have the rule, you'd better bloody well have a way of telling steroid users from non-steroid users. Because, if you haven't, you've turned the whole thing into one more iteration of clutchiness, and scrappiosity; made up excuses for liking some players, disliking others, and feeling oh-so-good about yourself, in the bargain.

It's indecent to hold Mark McGwire to a different standard than other players, not because he's such a great guy, but because it just inherently is. Which is not to say it's a travesty. Like I said, I haven't decided whether I care about this, yet. But it is indecent.

by Andrew Shimmin on Jan 9, 2007 5:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummmmmm...
you missed the little tidbit about me confusing the two Andrews up.  Your logic conflicted some of his and I thought it was all the same person.  So much of my post didn't make sense. :)
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 9, 2007 10:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I understood
I even changed my screen name.

I thought your arguments made sense. I just disagreed with them.

by The Other Andrew on Jan 9, 2007 11:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re: Andrew
haha, sorry about the 2 Andrew mess up.  Keep up the good work.
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 9, 2007 5:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

not too mention
most significantly, I think, is that it was not even impermissable under any rule of baseball to take steroids during the period of relevance.  In addition to having no proof, the BWWAA is essentially holding McGwire accountablefor doing something against the rules today, but not agaist the rules at the time he played.

Also agree with you about Blyleven.  I think that actually irritates me more.  Random (and likely fleeting) moralism, though wrong, is commonplace in all maters political.  I can't really hold the BWWAA accountable for being as pandering as most other politicos.  Blylevn makes it clear that they just don't know what they are doing when it comes to the one thing at which they are proportedly experts.

by Paul Scott on Jan 9, 2007 6:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Xeifrank
It was against Federal Law, why would baseball need a rule against it?
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 9, 2007 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why does Baseball need a rule against
the catcher tripping the batter on his way out of the batting box when that behavior is illegal, too?

by The Other Andrew on Jan 9, 2007 9:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dreifort
anybody else think he was on roids....his body before surgery and after surgery was startling...like two different people. This is a guy who was a good hitter in college, yet he hit two 400+ ft homers in the same game vs the Cubs some year back....at Dodger Stadium. They were moonshots.
I think he was on them.
It's ashame he was so brittle.

by rayg on Jan 9, 2007 7:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

evidence
In response to Andrew's article, I would just like to point out that there is a difference between proof and evidence.

There is certainly EVIDENCE McGwire took steroids. Canseco's stories are evidence. Perhaps not credible evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

Similarly, while 'taking the fifth' could not be considered evidence in a court of law, it can certainly be evidence in a non-legal proceeding.

For example, if you suspected an employee of stealing, and questioned him about it, and he said "I invoke my right against self-incrimination", wouldn't you think that meant he DID steal? You would probably fire him if you were the boss.

So using McGwire's Congressional non-testimony as evidence that he used steroids is entirely appropriate, in my view, for HOF voters.

That does not answer the question of whether they have enough evidence to keep him out, or whether even proof positive evidence (confession, dirty test) SHOULD keep him out. But there is some evidence McGwire used steroids, and that, I venture, is why Andrew believes McGwire used.

So all this just to say that there is a difference between evidence and proof, and saying there is no evidence McGwire used steroids is inaccurate.

by Alfredo Griffin on Jan 10, 2007 9:38 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

McGwire
Thanks.  I have been wanting to comment on the BBWA's vendetta toward McGwire.  You have put to words just about what I wanted to say.  I would only add this; IF MLB had a ban on steroids and IF McGwire used them illegally.  Then don't vote for him, ever.  But if steroids were not illegal and we have no proof he used them, then get off his back.  I wonder if the cretins in the BBWA will treat the proven users as badly.

by bobmac on Jan 10, 2007 8:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

re: McGwire
but steroids were against the law.  Why should baseball have to have a rule against something that is against the law?
vr, Xei

by xeifrank on Jan 11, 2007 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re
I'm not a fan of the steroids weren't illegal argument, for the reason Xei stated, but I do agree that you either vote for a guy, or you don't.

by Andrew on Jan 11, 2007 3:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone's on 'Roids!
I have zero problem with saying--everybody can be assumed to be on them, just like amphetamines (apparently) in the seventies.  Our strange American morality causes us to have a whole melting pot of ideas related to drug use--dependence, addiction, pain relief, medicinal use, legal ramifications--that we all mix up and spit out ideas that we have regarding other drugs (i.e., narcotics versus steroids) which all sounds like Mr. Macky from South Park, "Drugs are bad.  You shouldn't do drugs."  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XnJ0fmo5Q
We're never going to throw out all the guys in the HOF who did illegal activities; this was acceptable behavior at the time, so let's just all shut up and enjoy the game and the players.  Nobody ever went from a no-talent hack to good player by taking steroids, HGH, cocaine, amphetamines, whatever.
JGB

by isednom on Jan 11, 2007 8:37 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Andrew: great post
Isn't it odd that the Pittsburgh Steelers, the team that brought roids and HGH to the mainstream NFL, are still thought of as one of the greatest teams ever.  Why the anger with McGwire?  One thought is that sportswriters really dislike Sammy Sosa and they know that to bash Sosa when he's eligible for the HOF, they have to bash McGwire now.

by 1958 on Jan 11, 2007 9:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Reporters in Locker Rooms, et al
Reporters, unlike fans, had close up first hand encounters with the steroid era players.  Reporters saw a lot more than they reported, and some of this has come out since the steroid issue went public, especially after BALCO.  I would give some of them (some) credibility, that as a reporter they saw more signs of steroid use than just big muscles, and this affected how they voted, and not just the "guilty until proven innocent" thing.  

For another angle, I read Tom Verducci's article and the article is imho good reporting.
"Searching for truth" by Tom Verducci of SI.com,  
but I read the article on yahoo sports.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=cnnsi-searchingfortru&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

by cb504 on Jan 11, 2007 11:20 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re
Good point, but if this were true, why weren't they reporting it at the time? Granted, this could have happened, and if you pointed me to an article it would be great, but as best I can remember, there was no real connection between McGwire and roids while he was playing.

by Andrew on Jan 11, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep that makes sense
All the reporters got together at their conference and decided not to vote for McGwire because of the information a select few of them who worked near him was shared amongst themselves.
There are two main issues at work:  the media members don't want to get duped again (or give the appearance thereof) and McGwire is THE only person who hanged himself in this whole mess that is up for the HOF.
At least there is a significant minority of the electorate that sees through the BS and still cast their votes for McGwire.
JGB

by isednom on Jan 11, 2007 11:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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