The Pirates Ruin Things For Everyone

by Andrew on Jul 8, 2008 11:16 AM PDT

DeJan Kovacheck of the Pittsburgh Post Gazzette is reporting that Jack Wilson is likely staying put, and as much as it might surprise you, this is actually kind of depressing. If Pittsburgh was asking for the players Kovacheck talks about: James McDonald and Chin-Lung Hu, then it's not something I would be happy about, but the idea behind trading for Jack Wilson isn't a bad one.

At this point, I'm going to consider any further appearances by Rafael Furcal a happy coincidence, and I don't think management is going to be too enthusiastic about bringing back Chin-Lung Hu for an extended period of time. I have Friday for the Nomar Garciaparra death pool, so I don't see him lasting, and even if he did, his bat is barely playable as a middle infielder and combining him with Jeff Kent might make the worst middle infield in recent memory. All that's left after that are Angel Berroa and Luis Maza. This is unacceptable for a team that has managed to stumble backwards into contention. Neither of the Berroa/Maza tandem deserve to be on the bench of a major league team, let alone starting on a contenting one.

We need to find a new shortstop, and Jack Wilson probably is the best one available. He's not a complete offensive disaster, an upgrade over what we have out there now, and he's one of the better defensive shortstops in baseball, ranking 5^th in +/- over the last three years. Wilson is a decent baseball player, and while I'm generally opposed to getting "decent" guys, it looks appealing when you're starting Nomar at short.

Not only would Wilson help the team this year, but he could really help this offseason. If Furcal bolts, or we don't want to commit to a guy that's given us five good months in the last three years, the Dodgers are left without a middle infield. Since I can't see a situation where we start two of Hu, Blake DeWitt, Tony Abreu, or Ivan DeJesus next year, the Dodgers will be pretty much forced to throw large sacks of money at Orlando Hudson or Mark Ellis, and while I like those guys, I don't really want them around when they're 36 or 37. Jack Wilson would give us the option to bow out of those talks. Yeah, we'll be worse off with Wilson than with Hudson or Ellis in 2009, but he buys us another year of development for an internal solution or lets us try to get Brian Roberts.

Really, the problem here is with the Pirates. Holding onto Jack Wilson makes absolutely no sense. Jack Wilson will never be part of a winning team, and holding on to him for the Pirates yearly run at .500 really doesn't help. A team that has very little real assets on the farm and a bad major league club needs to sell off everything they have so they can start rebuilding. If the Pirates can't leverage Wilson's hot start into anything but more Jack Wilson, it's time to toss GM Neil Huntington into the bad GM tournament.

The Dodgers desperately need a shortstop, and Wilson was the best one we were going to get. Now it's time for us to get a little more scrappy and make a play for David Eckstein. Sadly, I'm 100% serious about that.

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Milton Bradley is blogging for the New York Times about his All Star expiriences.

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Comments

I hope you are

selling Nomar short on the offensive side of the equation. His 2nd half last season would have been solid for a shortstop. I actually don’t think his offense will be a question at all, the only question I have is his health.

To me it is interesting in that we may have one of the worse defensive keystones related to range but they both have solid hands and strong arms.

I’m quite stoked to see Nomar playing SS and have my fingers crossed that your pool comes and goes with him still playing. The longer he plays the longer time Hu has to get his vision together.

In the end I’d be happy with Alex Cora as insurance.

by ToyCannon on Jul 8, 2008 11:35 AM PDT 0 recs

Nomar still got game

Despite your lack of affection for Nomar the guy is still a gamer. I agree 100% that his health is still and will be an issue moving forward but the guy has bigger skills than Dewitt, LaRoche, and Berroa combined. Given a healthy stretch he could help lead the Dodgers to winning a pennant. Dewitt has game all day long – sure – and with his latest adjustments he’s only going to get better. He seems level headed enough for the second half but you gotta have veterans in the playoffs. LaRoche has a lot work to be done. My guess is he’ll be trade bait and he’ll end up a bright spot on the roster today but a forgotten memory much like 2005 roster player Jayson Werth tomorrow. Berroa? C’mon. Hey, by the way, how many home runs does Jack Wilson have this year? Nomar knew Kuroda needed some runs last night for a shot at immortality and what did he do? Clutch…

by SanFranciscoDodger on Jul 8, 2008 1:43 PM PDT 0 recs

Is this Bill Plaschke?

by Tango and Cash on Jul 8, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

“clutch” – it helps when the pitcher hangs a slider right over the plate. Fortunately, Nomar can still hit those hard.

by El Lay Dave on Jul 8, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

If it means Kemp staying

then I’m fine with it. I don’t understand why they would even considering dealing Kemp.

The poster formerly known as Matt.

by bluemax on Jul 8, 2008 1:49 PM PDT 0 recs

I Disagree

Hi, I’m a Bucco fan, and I’m going to have to disagree with the “Holding onto Jack Wilson makes absolutely no sense.” line.

Listen, we have NOTHING in the system behind Jack at SS. If the Pirates are to compete any time soon, Jack Wilson is part of the solution, not the problem.

The Bucs are 7th in runs scored in baseball, and 4th in the NL. There is no reason to blow this thing up and start over just yet. We need some pitchers. After we get Matt Morris’s contract off our backs, we’ll have 10 million to play with to find one in free agency. We can also use Xavier Nady to maybe find a major-league-ready SP prospect.

While the fixes to the Pirates may not be that simple, I do know one thing, dealing Jack to the Dodgers would be a mistake for us.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 8, 2008 9:54 PM PDT 0 recs

You’re kidding yourself if you think the Pirates will contend next year, and after that why would you want to A) pick up his option or B) re-sign him to another deal? The Pirates should be stockpiling assets at this point. And I don’t even want the Dodgers to trade for Jack Wilson because Ned Colletti is stupid and will invariably give up too much for him.

by Tango and Cash on Jul 8, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

Listen

As a Pirate fan, I think I have a little better grasp on what we should be doing than you do. You can follow the stereotype, and say we’re no where close, but in reality, we’re a lot better off than you think. As I said, we’re 4th in the NL in runs scored. We’ve got an offense. We need a pitcher or two. We don’t need to blow this thing up and rebuild just yet. If we were in your sorry division, we’d be square in the race, and with any semblance of a rotation, we’d be winning the thing.

Jack Wilson has said publicly he has no plans of playing past the end of his current deal. We have him at a bargain price for his defensive skill and offensive competence, so why would we move him for anything less than a big bounty? We’re under no pressure.

Matt Kemp may be too high a price for the Dodgers to pay, but, from our position, he is not to much for us to ask for.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 8, 2008 11:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

First, Jack Wilson said he plans on getting 10 years in, not that he’s retiring at the end of his contract, presumably because the MLB Pension kicks in after 10 years. If his option is exercised, sure he might retire as a Pirate, but baseball players say a lot of things they never end up doing. And that’s 2 years from now, and who knows what he might do then.

And the Pirates won’t be ready to contend next year. Hey, that’s great that they’re 4th in the NL in runs. They also have a terrible pitching staff, which you gloss over by saying they just need ‘a pitcher or two.’ Nobody outside of Snell in that rotation is very good! And I’m assuming that Snell’s season this year is an anomaly. And it’s not like you’re going to be much better on offense next year. While Neil Walker will be an upgrade at 3B, the rookie seasons of McCutcheon/Pearce will probably not be much better than Nady/LaRoche of this year, assuming that the former replace the latter. So if that’s a wash, an upgrade of Neil Walker isn’t going to propel the Pirates into contention. You still have no pitching whatsoever. And your best pitching prospects, Moskos and Lincoln, are nowhere close to the majors.

While the Pirates would be in 3rd place in the NL West, they wouldn’t be “square in the race.” A team that gives up a lot more runs than it scores isn’t going to win anything. Why even bring any of this up? Of course, you only brought it up because you wanted to make fun of the NL West for being a bad division. That may insult a 13 year old, but I don’t mind.

Why would you move him for anything less than a big bounty? Because Jack Wilson isn’t going to bring in a big bounty!! Do you seriously believe that Jack Wilson can bring Matt Kemp in a trade? I know Ned Colletti is stupid, but I can’t see anyone being dumb enough to make that trade. Even the price Andrew mentioned in the blog post, McDonald and Hu, is too high. Jack Wilson just is not as good as you seem to think he is. The Indians just got LaPorta for Sabathia, and he was by far the main prospect of that trade, and that was pretty much it. They also got a PTBNL, who might also be pretty good depending on who it is, a low A pitcher who might never make it to the majors, and another pitcher who has been dreadful lately in the majors. And that’s for Sabathia, a player way more valuable than Jack Wilson. And Kemp is better than LaPorta! This trade would never ever happen.

As for your concluding sentence, if you’re implying that Kemp isn’t too much to ask for, that on some level, Kemp for Wilson is a fair deal, that’s asinine. Rather, and this is what I assume you’re saying, that GMs with veteran trade bait can have outlandish trade requests, that goes without saying. Chuckles LaMar used to do it all the time; that’s how he got Kazmir for Victor Zambrano.

by Tango and Cash on Jul 9, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up 0 recs

Trade

Do I personally think Matt Kemp is worth Jack Wilson? No. However, I think the Pirates would be wise to ask for him, or Kershaw, or another major league ready SP, because those are the things we need. Regardless of your misguided opinions, this team CAN get into contention with the pieces in place, and the money we’ll have to spend in the winter. Theres no reason to start rebuilding, which is what a trade of Jack Wilson for anything less than a great prospect would signal, until (if) we’re out of the race at the deadline next year. All of our assets will still be in place to move then as well. That is why Jack Wilson isn’t going anywhere. The Dodgers don’t want to (and shouldn’t) pay the price the Pirates are asking for. We simply don’t match up as trade partners.

We almost had Jair Jurrgens for Wilson last year at the deadline, but we rejected it. Dumb move, but, for a team that needs a SS, thats what they’re going to have to give the Bucs. We have the leverage, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

P.S. Neil Walker isn’t coming up here any time soon. Bautista has been serviceable at 3rd. LaRoche likely won’t be going anywhere either. The only thing I see happening is Nady getting traded for a pitching prospect, McLouth moving to right, and McCutcheon coming up to play CF. Any other move would have to blow us away to happen.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

The Pirates absolutely cannot get into contention for next year. They need a lot more work. They still have holes in the offense, and their pitching is horrendous. You think you’re magically going to get a new rotation next year? Because that’s what the Pirates need, and the offense has been real lucky with the amount of runs they’ve scored, if I understand Baseball Prospectus’ 3rd Order Wins page correctly, so it’s not as good as you might expect, and most of the offense is coming from the outfield and Doumit. The Pirates need to build up as many assets as they can, and they need to recognize that Jack Wilson has more value to them as a trade piece than as a starting SS on their next contender.

As for it being wise to ask for lopsided deals, sure, I guess so. But it’s not wise to hold on to those demands when nobody’s biting because a) the player isn’t good enough to get such good players in return b) there’s no market or c) there’s other players of the same position available for better value. I’d say in Jack Wilson’s case, it’s probably all 3. He’s really not that good, and the Dodgers would gain more by keeping Kemp and finding some all-glove/no hit SS rather than replacing Kemp with some scrub and having that scrub and Jack Wilson with his all-glove/occasionally hit package. There doesn’t seem to be a huge market for Jack Wilson or really any shortstops at the moment. And c) we could probably just get Eckstein for cheaper since Ricciardi probably wants more average low-ceiling players anyway.

Plus, I think Pirates have deluded themselves into thinking that Jack Wilson is a lot better than he really is, and that they have a lot of leverage to get a sweet trade package, which is just crazy considering all the Indians really got for Sabathia was LaPorta, and Sabathia is way better than anyone on the Pirates’ entire roster.

by Tango and Cash on Jul 9, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up 0 recs

You're Wrong

Ian Snell has been hampered by injury. When his fastball is around 93-95, hes effective, but that velocity hasn’t been there until have came of the DL last night. Duke and Maholm have been consistent, and much better than last season, when we considered SP our strength. The three of them are legitimate in any rotation in the National League. If we add an arm or two in trades and free agency over the winter, we CAN compete for a wild card, and when I say “compete”, I mean have a winning record and be within 5 games of a playoff spot. I’m not saying we’ll take people by surprise like the Rockies or Rays, but we can be a respectable ball club.

If we fail, well, we still have the deadline next year to sell off the pieces in a firesale and start over then. However, theres no reason for us to give up on next season already by trading our only major league shortstop for some magic beans. You make it sound like we’re shopping Wilson when you talk about “the market”, but, we’re really not. We need Jack, and we’d have to be blown away to give him up. Maybe you’d understand if you watched Luis Rivas and Brian Bixler at SS for two months…

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up 0 recs

In other words

Given that the Dodgers are now playing the increasingly decrepit Nomar Garciaparra at SS (!) and have started the likes of flameout Angel Berroa and the apparently vision-impaired and perhaps not ready for prime time Chin-Lung Hu at SS since Furcal’s absence began, the Pirates and Dodger both need Jack Wilson in exactly the same way so a trade makes no sense.

by El Lay Dave on Jul 9, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

Ian Snell is probably the only pitcher on the Pirates that’s actually good. Maholm and Duke both walk too many guys and don’t strike out enough batters to ever be more than mediocre. And having mediocre pitchers on your pitching staff isn’t a bad thing. Getting league average production or right below it from one or two guys on the staff is good, but when your entire rotation is like that, unless you have an amazing, which the Pirates do not, you’re not going to contend for anything. And with the exception of Snell, every Pirate starter is mediocre or just plain bad. So if the Pirates get a decent offer for Wilson, they need to pull the trigger, not only do they save at least 7 million dollars, they’ll probably get a decent prospect. The Pirates are still rebuilding. They’re not close to contention, especially not when the Brewers and Cubs are so much better and will continue to be better than they are.

by Tango and Cash on Jul 9, 2008 6:30 PM PDT up 0 recs

Exactly

If we end up with a rotation of…
1. Snell
2. Free Agent/prospect
3. Free Agent/prospect
4. Duke
5. Maholm

...we’ll be ok. If Gorzelanny can find what he had last year, it has the potential to be a good rotation, that I feel can contend.

I’ll give you the Cubs being better than us for awhile, however, with the loss of Sheets and CC at years end, we can compete with the Brewers next year. Who knows what happens to their rotation? And on offense, I see things as a wash.

Doumit > Kendall
Wilson < Hardy
Bautista > Hall
LaRoche < Fielder
Sanchez = Hall (and thats generous given Freddy’s track record)
McLouth > Cameron
Bay = Braun
Nady=Hart

We’re not the team in disarray you seem to think we are. We can contend, which is why trading Wilson before we even know where things could go this off season is irresponsible.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 7:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

Next Year

We may not contend next year, but when you’ve had 15 consecutive losing seasons, you owe the fans one more shot at winning before you begin rebuilding. If we fail, well, we’re right back where we were before anyway. Its not time to wave the white flag.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 7:06 PM PDT up 0 recs

If you have to fill ...

two of the top three spots in your rotation, and you don’t have the $$$ to compete in the market for the big FAs, I think that’s a pretty big problem. Hoping TWO prospects to step and be contender-level 2 and 3 starters is playing a longshot. Good luck – at least you have improved at the GM position!

by El Lay Dave on Jul 9, 2008 7:32 PM PDT up 0 recs

Gorzo

We may only need to add one guy. We still have Tom Gorzelanny, who has taken a step back this year after a 14-10/3.88 ERA 2007. However, his problems are a lot like Snell’s. He was abused by Jim Tracy last year, throwing far more innings than he should have. If he can come back healthy and rested, he can be a number 3 guy for us, leaving us with only one spot to address.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 7:42 PM PDT up 0 recs

Common ground!

Jim Tracy blows. You improved at the manager spot too. In both cases (including GM), you’d have been hard pressed to do worse.

by El Lay Dave on Jul 9, 2008 7:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yes

You understand, and the above point you made about us needing Wilson in the same way you do was exactly the point I was trying to make in 10000000 less words.

God Created the World Out Of Nothing, Paterno Built A National Superpower On Cow Fields...

by fugimaster24 on Jul 9, 2008 9:12 PM PDT up 0 recs

How about Bobby Crosby

With the A’s trading Harden and Gaudin (that was a surprise to us at AN) it is looking like Beane is going all the way with his rebuilding effort. I think the A’s could play someone serviceable as SS without BoCro, but you would be pleasantly surprised at the good range defense he provides. It seems like the Dodgers could use some of that. We could take LaRoche off your hands, we need a 3B in the worst way.

by connie mack on Jul 8, 2008 11:47 PM PDT 0 recs

That's pretty funny!

LaRoche is better than any player Oakland rec’d in the Harden deal, for him we get Brittle Bobby Crosby and his impending trip to the DL; yup, that’s what the Dodgers need, more players on the DL. I sincerely hope that your tongue was boring a hole through your cheek when you wrote that.

by El Lay Dave on Jul 9, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up 0 recs

David Eckstein would turn Bill Plaschke positively orgasmic

David Eckstein has two boxes.
One from each league.
Inside each box, a ring.
Two leagues, two rings, one winning shortstop.
David Eckstein is an ex-Angel under Mike Scioscia.
David Eckstein is a ballplayer.

Fire Joe Morgan might overload its circuits on a Plaschke column on a Dodger acquisition of Eckstein.

by El Lay Dave on Jul 9, 2008 11:24 AM PDT 0 recs

This Might Be Fun--Here's Mine

In LA, the Dodgers were celebrating
Down in the Desert, the D-Backs’ boots were shaking.
In LA, team chemistry matters again
Down in the Desert, all the youngsters care about their stats but not the wins.
In LA, the Eckstein Express has arrived.
Down in the Desert, the mercenary D-Backs are doing their best to survive.

by Tango and Cash on Jul 9, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up 0 recs

Hu

Do you think Hu gets a mulligan on his first half appearance due to his vision problems? If he corrects his vision then hits well in AAA, does he get put back into the conversation for SS of the future?
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jul 9, 2008 1:34 PM PDT 0 recs