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The All-Time LA Dodger Lineup: The Second Spot

"Now, who's on the table. who's to tell me?"

-Bob Dylan, Apple Sucking Tree

Now that Maury Wills has won your vote as the top leadoff hitter in LA Dodger history, we move on to the second spot in the batting order.  Wills is our shortstop, so that position is off the table for future batting order spots.  That means our starting lineup will not feature Bill Russell, Alfredo Griffin, Jose Offerman, or the like.

All-Time LA Dodger Lineup

No Player Pos
30 Maury Wills
SS
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Please remember it is important to consider that all positions on the diamond will be used in this lineup so you may want to vote strategically.  For instance, someone might be the best player at a certain position so it might be worth it to vote him over a superior spot at that lineup.  Also, a player might fit better later in the lineup.  Jim Gilliam didn't win a spot as the leadoff man, but he's back again as a candidate for the #2 spot.


Here are the stats for the primary #2 hitters in Los Angeles Dodger history.  Their overall stats as a Dodger are listed, along with the games started and years they were the primary #2 hitter for the Dodgers:

Pos Player Years #2 Starts PA Runs RBI SB Slash Stats OPS+
SS Bill Russell 1977-1979 679 8020 796 627 167 .263/.310/.338 82
2B/3B Jim Gilliam 1961-1965 654 4893 630 323 112 .261/.358/.338 92
LF Bill Buckner 1971-1976 528 3081 347 277 93 .289/.319/.380 99
CF Ken Landreaux 1981-1983 375 2980 342 306 119 .263/.312/.394 98
2B Mark Grudzielanek 1999-2001 339 2568 323 221 33 .284/.328/.389 89
LF Manny Mota 1969-1970 302 2187 229 226 21 .315/.374/.391 117
CF Willie Davis
1968 208 8035 1004 849 335 .279/.312/.413 107

Jim Gilliam is tough to pigeonhole into one position.  In his years as the primary #2 hitter (1961-1965), he started 292 games at 2B and 261 games at 3B.  If Gilliam wins the poll, I'm willing to have him flexible as to create more options later in the lineup.

Bill Russell could have ended up as a choice later in the lineup as well, as he spent a considerable amount of time batting both 7th & 8th in his long Dodger career.  However, with a shortstop at the top in Wills, Russell is stuck on the outside looking in.

Many remember Bill Buckner as a creaky-kneed immobile first baseman, but as a Dodger he was a young and agile outfielder.  You may remember Buckner as the Dodger leftfielder trying to climb the wall in Atlanta to retrieve Hank Aaron's 715th HR.  He spent time in both OF corners and at 1B before Steve Garvey took over, but his position is RF since he started more games there than at 1B or LF combined.

Ken Landreaux caught the final out of the 1981 World Series, and had a solid if unspectacular Dodger career. 

Mark Grudzielanek came to LA as a shortstop, but eventually moved to second base.  During his three years as the Dodgers' #2 hitter, he started more than twice as many games at 2B than he did at SS.

If there was a spot in the lineup for a pinch-hitter, Manny Mota would be a lock.  However, he was a semi-regular outfielder for the Dodgers for a little while.  He also has the best bat of the bunch.

Willie Davis was a late add, since he was primarily a #3 hitter.  However, the all-time LA Dodger leader in Win Shares did start 208 games batting 2nd, so he's not entirely out of place.

Eric's Pick

When I started writing this, Brett Butler had a sizable lead over Davey Lopes, and Maury Wills was a distant third.  I planned ahead thinking centerfield was taken.  My initial vote went to Gilliam, but given the circumstances I'm going with the 3-Dog, Willie Davis.  It's hard to have a lineup without the all-time LA Dodger Win Share leader on it.

Phil's Pick

I'll go with Eric's original pick of Junior Gilliam as a 2nd baseman.  During his stint as the number two behind Wills he was the ideal number two hitter. 3 Dog's .312 OBP is not endearing and the goal is to build the best lineup with players who batted in the lineup. Gilliam was an ideal number two as explained by  teammate Jeff Torborg

What a great team player he was. He'd hit behind Maury, take pitch after pitch after pitch. And when Maury got to second, he'd give himself up by hitting the ball to the right side, even with two strikes, which most hitters won't do.

Willie Davis would be the wrong choice to follow Wills. History already shows how effective Wills/Gilliam were batting 1/2. Eric is worried about how the lineup will play in the future but let us cross that bridge when we get to it. Besides  I now see a role for the Toy Cannon since Eric has approved 3 Dog with only 208 games batting 2nd.

Who is your pick?  (This poll runs through Thursday at noon)

Poll
Who is the best #2 hitter in LA Dodger history?
2B/3B - Jim Gilliam
130 votes
LF - Bill Buckner
20 votes
CF - Ken Landreaux
1 votes
2B - Mark Grudzielanek
12 votes
LF - Manny Mota
38 votes
CF - Willie Davis
91 votes
Other (please write your choice in the comments)
3 votes

295 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 31 comments |

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Comments

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Go for Gilliam

Like Lopes and Russell, Wills and Gilliam worked well together. Love the Three-Dog and he was the fastest man in baseball but in this spot I gotta go with Gilliam.

by IWILLRULEYOU on Jan 26, 2009 1:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

How in the world did Wills win for leadoff?

Just looking at the raw lines he was easily the worst leadoff guy of the bunch.

You know what? Fuck you Sports Gods, fuck you.

by bluemax on Jan 26, 2009 1:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

re:

Over 200 voters beg to differ. Evidently raw data lines were no match for those who saw him play and lead the offensively challenged Dodgers of 63-66 to three appearances in the World Series.

by meercatjohn on Jan 26, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

wat

That sounds like something Jon Heyman would say.

by kensai on Jan 26, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Heyman

…would have quoted “sources” that had Steve Sax winning.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just glad...

…he was actually right about Manny.

by kensai on Jan 26, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at raw lines is not fair

You have to adjust for era and park, and the 1960s Dodger Stadium was one of the worst hitting environments in baseball history. Even though Wills didn’t relatively get on base as well as Butler or Lopes, he did wreak havoc on the bases in a time when those bases were far more important to the club’s offense.

I had Wills third behind Lopes and Butler, but I can see the argument for him; it’s not entirely unreasonable at all.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Win Shares

Following up a bit, here are the full season Dodger Win Shares totals for our top leadoff candidates:

Wills
1960: 16
1961: 21
1962: 32
1963: 27
1964: 20
1965: 28
1966: 16
1969: 19 (about 2/3 with Dodgers)
1970: 13
Average: 21.33

Butler
1991: 26
1992: 24
1993: 23
1994: 19
1997: 7
Average: 19.8

Lopes
1973: 19
1974: 21
1975: 25
1976: 16
1977: 24
1978: 26
1979: 27
1980: 16
Average: 21.75

I

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can you add their age next to the year?

I am having a hard time separating the player’s career from their Dodger career.

by mr_blond on Jan 26, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ages

Wills
age 27: 16
28: 21
29: 32 (MVP)
30: 27
31: 20
32: 28
33: 16
36: 19 (about 2/3 with Dodgers)
37: 13
Average: 21.33

Butler
34: 26
35: 24
36: 23
37: 19
40: 7
Average: 19.8

Lopes
age 28: 19
29: 21
30: 25
31: 16
32: 24
33: 26
34: 27
35: 16
Average: 21.75

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I missed Wills' 1971

Wills had 19 Win Shares in 1971, pushing his average down to 21.1

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re:

I’d even add that having Wills 3rd behind Lopes and Butler was more a testament to how good Lopes and Butler were then a shot at Wills. As Eric said we have to remember the era of Dodger Stadium in the early-mid 60’s.

Wes Parker’s raw number look lame compared to Karros but Wes Parker was the better offensive player.

by meercatjohn on Jan 26, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s a logical fallacy. Just because Wills won doesn’t mean he was the best. Of course, such an argument will ultimately be subjective in nature, but we can at least come up with more object measures, which bluemax referred to, rather than giving anecdotal evidence based on the stories those people can tell about what he did when they saw them play.

We can, however, say two things with reasonable certainty. Wills was such a mediocre offensive player that he wouldn’t be ‘leading’ an offense in the way you posit, and that a decent number of people here, probably most, weren’t even alive when Wills was in his hayday. They probably know him as the guy who stole a ton of bases and then voted for him because that’s what leadoff hitters are typically thought to do.

Dodger Fever: Catch it every summer; head to the ER every October.

by Tango and Cash on Jan 27, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can we really have two players so inept at getting on base at the top of the lineup?

Now that Butler didn’t win I don’t think you can reasonably have another out machine at the top of the lineup. In this sense, #2 has to go to Jim Gilliam or Manny Mota. Since Mota wasn’t a regular for most of his career, then I think this forces Gilliam in a swing position depending on who else cracks the lineup.

I hope Manny and his half season make it to the list for #3.

by mr_blond on Jan 26, 2009 1:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

re:

No Manny this time.

by meercatjohn on Jan 26, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe after 2011

Manny, to date, has started 53 games as a Dodger. He’s not quite there.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dunno

I don’t think Mota played long enough in #2, so i’ll give it to Gillam, only because we can’t have the top TWO guys in the lineup have Juan Pierre-esque OBP.

by kensai on Jan 26, 2009 2:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wills had a good OBP

After adjusting for park and league, Wills’ OBP+ was ~105. Wills was above the league average every season as a Dodger.

Pierre hasn’t had an OBP at league average or above since 2004.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Still...

It was .330-ish, and being better than Juan Pierre isn’t a point of pride, I think.

Butler was pretty much the prototypical modern leadoff hitter, given what we know is valuable today.

In the first two spots, I just can’t go with a guy who has 60 less points in OBP. I can’t. :o

by kensai on Jan 26, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta go with Junior

I don’t know about stats, but it is a close tie in my mind with Junior and Willie, bot my nod has to go to Junior Gilliam. He just scared pitchers it seemed to me when I was a boy.
Now if The Duke was batting third, that would REALLY make JG deadly!

by dodgerbill on Jan 26, 2009 3:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Let it go

I thought we were on the #2 hitter in the lineup. Butler isn’t in on this one and I saw enough groundouts, popups, LOB’s and flubbed outfield play by Pierre in his first year to last a lifetime. Hopefully someone gets really desperate this year and takes him off our hands. Why anyone even brings him up is beyond me. Bad juju man.

Sorry Eric, Junior is gonna take this one! Next………………..

by IWILLRULEYOU on Jan 26, 2009 4:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I could be persuaded that

Billy Buckner could be the right choice considering the repercussions of upcoming picks.

by bhsportsguy on Jan 26, 2009 5:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

3 Dog benefitting from JP backlash?

by Bob Hendley on Jan 26, 2009 8:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Doubt it

You’ll see Bill Russell playing CF for this lineup before you see Juan Pierre.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 26, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BR in Center before JP

All I can say Eric is AMEN BROTHER!

by IWILLRULEYOU on Jan 26, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So

its BR who would benefit from JP backlash?

by Bob Hendley on Jan 26, 2009 9:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Surprised

I wasn’t around for any of this, so I don’t think I should vote. But I’m surprised that there’s so little support for Manny Mota when all his his stats (especially for a no. 2 where you don’t usually look to RBI) look better than everyone else’s. I’d understand if this was tactical, in the sense that there may be better-hitting LF’s coming up in the 3-4-5 spots, but no one has mentioned that. People just don’t seem to think of him as a Dodger (“not a regular”), or something like that?

by berkowit28 on Jan 27, 2009 9:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry

Mota will always have a spot on the all-time coaching staff. :)

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 27, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re:

To me it is tactical as Sheffield is such a big bopper but Sheff is not a slam dunk in LF because of the competition he will face for the 3/4 spot. Still we can find left fielders all over the lineup who I think were better then Mota. Can’t say the same for Gilliam. Lopes was better but he’s off the table. Kent was better but won’t beat out anybody in the 3/4/5 spots that he’d qualify for. Sax might have been better but his main spot is also gone.

by meercatjohn on Jan 27, 2009 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to vote for Mark Grudz. He was one of my favorite Dodgers when he played.

I considered voting for Mota. OPS+ of 117 is pretty good batting second. And I have to think Piazza is going to win the 3 hole in the next poll, which means LF is still going to be available.

by the big grabowski on Jan 27, 2009 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

WEST COAST BIAS AGAINST BROOKLYN!

Seriously though, I would’ve been more interested in seeing an all-time Dodger team vote because that would be a better team and more fun to vote for. And we wouldn’t have to be voting for guys like Mark Grudzielanek.

Dodger Fever: Catch it every summer; head to the ER every October.

by Tango and Cash on Jan 27, 2009 5:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Me too

The only problem with that is there is very sparse play-by-play data prior to 1956. I may do some research into this for a later poll down the road…perhaps next offseason we can have a Brooklyn-inclusive poll.

Pee Wee and Jackie batting 1-2 would be much better! :)

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Jan 27, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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