Don't Give Up On Billingsley Yet
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 1:00 PM PST
in Dodgers History & Records
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PrintOver the last couple of days, Jon Weisman of Dodger Thoughts has dived head first into the shark infested waters otherwise known as discussion of Chad Billingsley. For some reason, Billingsley is a lightning rod among Dodger fans, almost the third rail of team discussion. It seems he is either loved or hated, with little room in between.
We all know Billingsley's 2009 didn't end the way anyone would have wanted it. After an All-Star start to his season, Billingsley went 3-8 with a 5.21 ERA and 4.58 FIP since the middle of June. He ended up not even making a playoff start. The only other Dodger starting pitcher in history to make an All-Star team yet not start in the postseason in the same year was Brad Penny in 2006, who was nursing a back injury that year.
To me, the most important thing to note is that the book on Chad Billingsley is not finished; it is still being written. Considering Billingsley turned 25 in 2009, there are likely many more chapters in that book.
Let me know if this story sounds familiar:
- Former club leader in wins struggles in the second half
- Struggling pitcher gets left off the playoff roster for his team
- In fact, pitcher was sent to the minors during his struggling period
This sounds an awful lot like Chad Billingsley (minus the sent to the minors part), but in fact this was the case of Cliff Lee, with the Indians in 2007. Lee turned 29 that year, four years older than Billingsley is now. Here is a look at the career stats as starters for these two pitchers at the fork in the road point of their careers:
| Player | Years | Ages | Starts | IP/GS | H/9 | HR/9 | BB/9 | K/9 | K/BB | ERA | ERA+ | FIP | WHIP |
| Cliff Lee | 2002-2007 | 23-28 | 125 | 5.89 | 9.27 | 1.27 | 3.11 | 6.64 | 2.14 | 4.63 | 94 | 4.63 | 1.375 |
| Chad Billingsley |
2006-2009 | 21-24 | 100 | 5.89 | 8.20 | 0.78 | 4.11 | 8.17 | 1.99 | 3.50 | 121 | 3.84 | 1.368 |
Billingsley holds up pretty well in this comparison to Lee. Now ask yourself, who is more likely to improve -- a 25-year old or a 29-year old? The Indians didn't give up on Lee, and all he did was win the Cy Young in 2008 and put up a 1.56 postseason ERA in five starts for the Phillies in 2009.
I'm not telling you to put your money down on Billingsley for the 2010 NL Cy Young award, but it wouldn't be out of the question. Billingsley still has time and room to improve, but his established baseline is already pretty good. To think otherwise is foolish.
That said, the Dodgers currently have a need for another starting pitcher, maybe two. Roy Halladay, who might be traded out of Toronto, is the name most sought out by many. Bob Nightengale of USA Today suggested last week that Billingsley, among others, would have to be included in any Dodgers' trade for Halladay. Don't get me wrong, Halladay would be a huge upgrade over Billingsley in 2010, but why should the Dodgers have to give up one of their best players to get Halladay? The Phillies gave up minor leaguers to get Cliff Lee in 2009, and the Mets did the same to get Johan Santana in 2008. If the Dodgers want to acquire Halladay (I don't think they will, due to budget constraints), history suggests they shouldn't have to part with Billingsley at all.
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jon broxton...
he was signed out of the 2002 draft and pitched 29 innings that year after signing…
In 2003, he didnt pitch at all and he came back in 2004 and pitched 128 ininings in a+ ball. and in 2005 he pitched AA and got 13 innings of MLB experience under his belt….
now my question is Where was he in 2003???
B-R shows Broxton pitching 37.1 innings for the low-A Dodgers team in 2003
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=broxto001jon
Interesting that the Cube
missed that year.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
From what it looks like, Broxton was only doing starting innings in High-A and double-A. Why was he only a reliever in low-A?
he wasnt a reliever in low A
he started 8 games out of 9 appearances and totaled 37 innings…
We
probably need to see when he joined Low A. It is possible being a high school draftee he stayed behind in the Florida instructional league and then instead of putting him into rookie ball they put him into Low A.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
DePo made a huge mistake by calling him up in 2005 as a 21-year-old with the team going nowhere. It cost the Dodgers a year of club control.
We were only four games back
so hardly out of it even with Drew on the DL. It went to hell in a handbasket very quickly after that but you don’t give up on 7/29 only four games out.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Plus
the extra bonus was that, to create room for Broxton on the 40-man roster, Scott Erickson was DFA’d :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
Plus
Why care about the future when your ass is going to be shipped out if you don’t improve immediately. Selfish (and hated) but probably realistic.
yup
it didnt cost us a year of club control… i thought it just made him a super two..
Broxton was not a Super Two. By calling him up in 2005, it made his 2006 year a complete season (he was called up on 4/30/06, I believe).
so you are saying...
those 13 innings he pitched in 2005 cost us 1 year of club control?
Yes
If Broxton had 21 fewer days of service time the Dodgers woul have him through 2012
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 1:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
yeah thats what i meant..
those 13 innings took too long of a time on the active roster..
hey dude
i don’t know why did you bring that up, but is very interesting
in fact is almost the path withrow took this year
by hirambocachica on Nov 23, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions
o damn you are right!!!
withrow pitched barely right after signing like broxton… then missed a year with injury and then came back and they both threw over 120 innings after coming back… then broxton got a taste of the bigs the next year.. lets see if withrow does the same but as a starter and not a reliever tho
My Two Cents
1. I’d be perfectly happy to have Chad in our rotation for the next couple of years. He’s 25 and had 1/2 of a bad season and otherwise has been really, really good.
2. If we happened to land Roy Halladay for him – I wouldn’t be that upset seeing as how Halladay, in my opinion, has proven himself to be the best pitcher in baseball over the past few years.
I would be extremely pissed to lose someone as young and cheap as Bills for one year of Halladay.
Although that would be tempered if the team went farther than they did the last two years.
I think you'd be even more upset
if Halladay’s first post-season experience ended the same way as Sabathia’s.
Acquiring pitchers with the idea of having them help you in the playoffs is a risky proposition. With a short series, 1 start could be all you get.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Not sure your point. I’m not suggesting that no starting pitchers aquired via trade have good post-season starts. I think giving up Billingsley with the belief that Halladay will do better in the very small sample size that is the playoffs is the wrong way to go.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
I think the idea is that
whether or not Billingsley is traded, at this point in a hypothetical situation, pitching Halladay in the playoffs over Billingsley is the smart bet to take. In the long run when it comes to contracts and all of that, trading him could be a mistake.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t disagree that in the playoffs you pitch the best pitcher available. As of October 2009, that would have been Halladay. But will that be true in 2010? In 2007 Halladay (at the age of 30) posted an x-FIP of 4.05. In 2009 (this horrendous year that Billingsley had) his x-FIP was 4.04 (at the age of 25.) Halladay wasn’t even in the majors yet by the age of 25. If Billingsley rebounds next year, I would not be surprised to see a 26 year old Billingsley having the better year than the 33 year old Halladay.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Is the argument of “well Halladay pitched in the AL East” overruled?
by Julio Nievas on Nov 23, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
No. That is a good point. x-FIP should minimize some of that though (since it normalizes the home run rate.) But pitching against tougher lineups should certainly be taken into consideration.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah in the long run, I agree
you are taking a risk. But also, Halladay with that x-FIP is giving you complete games and 7-8 innings mostly, whereas at this point, Billingsley is going 5-6.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
True. I’m still bullish on Billingsley and I think/hope the 5-6 inning performances were a negative side effect of the broken leg last year. He started out pitching lights out (with no concerns about pitching deep into games) but slowed down as the year went on. Possibly a result of his being out of shape due to being on the shelf with the broken leg? I hope so.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Like I Said Above
I would love to have Chad back in the rotation – but it would be hard to be upset if he was traded for Halladay.
I see it the other way. I would love to have Halladay in the rotation, but I would be upset if he came over in a trade where Chad is moved out. I cherry-picked the x-FIP above (2007 was Hallday’s worst year) but my point is that you shouldn’t be expecting a sure thing from Halladay. It was only 2 years ago that he had a worse year than Chad and he will be paid 5 times the amount Chad is next year—-and we only get him for that one year. Most of Halladay’s stats (on a per year basis) are better than Chad’s, but the guys are going in opposite directions. Chad came up at 22.
Halladay, year 33 at $15MM compared to Billingsley year 26 at $3MM. To me, that’s an easy call.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
A $12M increase in 2010 closes the budget without having increased the number of SPs on the roster, without adding a 2B, and adding no more bench players. So that would leave:
Rotation:
Halladay
Kershaw
Kuroda
Elbert
McDonald
(w/ Stults, Haeger supplying the only depth?)
2B: DeDay battle between DeWitt and DeJesus, or a platoon
Bench: JP, Paul?, Ellis, Hu, DeOtherGuy.
1. I don’t see Ned going that route.
2. Even I have to worry about depth with a roster like that.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
I completely agree that his leg
caused some issues. I think this year he will rebound.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
I also don't think trading for Doc is the answer....
Sometimes betting on the young dudes like Kershaw and Bills to be the kick ass aces we need is a good risk to take. Slot in Wolf and the other players in this act, and it might add up. That is why I was wanting the Dodgers to try and sign a guy like Pettite who I think would compliment guys like Kershaw and Bills in the rotation.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
I felt the same way as you did right before the trade deadline.
Then I watched Cliff Lee and CC Sabbathia start Game 1 of the World Series.
I hear that.
But for every veteran ace who does that, there is a Brad Penny and Josh Beckett from 2003, or Mark Prior from 2003, or John Lackey from 2002, or other young guy who puts it together.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with your overall point
but this…
Halladay wasn’t even in the majors yet by the age of 25
is not true. Halladay came within one out of a no-hitter in his second major league start at age 21, in 1998.
He pitched in parts of the next three seasons, before starting full time at age 25. At age 23, he earned the nickname “Pig fucker” in my fantasy league because the guy who had him did not appreciate the 10.64 ERA in 67 innings. :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
Ha!
I just think they don’t go back that far…sort of like Donruss baseball cards, only showing the previous five years rather than a player’s entire career.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Donruss
for instance…1987 Donruss Eddie Murray:
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
#1 career highlight
missing a month of the ’86 season with a hamstring injury lol
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
I think any talk of acquiring Doc is moot since the Dodgers will not be bringing in his contract.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Agreed
He was just used as an example. Just for fun, I went back and read my still-in-draft-form “Halladay traded to Dodgers” post that never was.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
Unless Ned trades away our top prospects for the Jays to pay some of Hallday’s contract.
by Julio Nievas on Nov 23, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
Giants looking to sign Torreabela.
I love the Giants and trying to block their good young players.
by Tripon on Nov 23, 2009 1:50 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The best thing is this isn't even a joke.
You go to MCC and I’d say all discussions Grant posts about prospects and rookies is, "It’d be nice to get a look at a youngster . . . but some bum in the OF, at 1B, SS or C is blocking them . . . "
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 23, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
Also, this conversation on how bad Billingsley was, and how Broxton is untouchable is sort of odd considering that Broxton was the one with the post season blow up.
Not that I’m advocating for both to be blasted, but for some reason Broxton isn’t criticized like he was, and Billingsley still is.
nobody is saying broxton is untouchable and
billingsley is not being critisized anymore..
Do you mean elsewhere? I haven’t seen people suggest Brox is untouchable.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
Well, I should have typed that Broxton isn’t mentioned at all. Which to me implies that he gone beyond the go to guy to ‘blame’ for the Dodgers failures like Billingsley become.
Go to ESPN
where they want both Bills and Brox shipped out post-haste.
by Capt Obvious on Nov 23, 2009 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
So did the goofy white guy who is alongside Jim Hill on CBS tv.
Well, to be fair, he didn’t want Brox out, but he was saying goofy stuff like, “Can we get rid of Billingsley fast enough!?”
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 23, 2009 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
I’m assuming it was Steve Hartman, one of the ten worst people on the planet.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 9:39 PM PST up reply actions
steve hartman wants everyone gone..
hes a idiot… probably top 3 not top 10..
by matthewmafa on Nov 23, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah that’s him. What’s his deal? He looks handsome enough for tv and doesn’t stutter so they point a camera at him and make him Jim Hill’s straight man? He truly does suck.
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 24, 2009 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
I kind of take the middle road with Bills.
I don’t think he is as bad as some think, nor as good. He could turn out either way, but I would guess he will turn into a solid Randy Wolf last season type guy for a few years.
He is a good value
for the type of pitcher I believe he is when he is not injured or whatever his problems were last year if they were injury related.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
As I noted above, Billingsley x-FIP in 2009 was 4.04.
Wolf’s best season (according to x-FIP) was also 2009 at 4.28.
I firmly expect Billingsley to have the better pro career between the two.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
"Well, that's just like your opinion, man." :)
Just joking around, but we will see next year I think when Bills shouldn’t have any excuses like having a broken leg to heal from, or not enough starts. I think next year will show a lot for his future worth.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Just a Random Side Note
I just met and talked to Clayton Kershaw at Quiznos here in Highland Park. Its funny because we actually have a few mutual friends through SMU, but at the same time i was as nervous as a school girl. i’ll try to see if I can upload the picture I snapped on my cell.
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
Kershaw chills in Highland Park
during the offseason? He should maybe be careful and also go and check out Mr/ T’s Bowl.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
Ha, wow, I totally thought you were
talking about Highland Park in LA. Nevermind.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
Ha, I can’t think of two more different places than Highland Park, LA and Highland Park, TX.
HIghland Park, TX is the Beverly Hills of Dallas.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I hear that the Highland Park in LA
is sort of up and coming like the new Echo Park, but for a very wealthy, recognizable ball player, if Kershaw did live there, I would give him props. I had this image of a hipster Kershaw.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
haha no highland park, tx
he went to highschool here at HPH, and happens to know a few people in my fraternity that came to college here..small world haha
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
Yeah, I figured that out after a minute,
I was like “isn’t he from a place called Highland Park?” Was he a nice guy?
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
very nice, seemed a little quiet
but thats probably because I couldnt keep my mouth shut..I’ve heard though that he’s very low key, down to earth, family oriented, just a genuine guy
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
Awesome, I love hearing stuff like that about
players on the teams I like.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
yep nothing like a guy that doesnt let stardom
go to his head
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
he’s not a “star” yet, at least not the type that could let it get to their head. Wait until he signs a 6 year, $600m contract (this is post Chinese bail-out, when the dollar has crashed) and is on the cover of SI.
It’s actually amazing how under the radar he still is, wouldn’t be the case if he was in NY or Boston.
The Chinese bail-out....
That is a scary thought.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions
Nice man
I figure you guys are roughly the same age right?
BTW, your campus in Highland Park is gorgeous. I was down in Dallas a year or so ago on work, and a colleague took me around SMU where he is completing graduate school. It’s quite the campus.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
ya hes about a year older than me
Although I felt like i was meeting the King of England, I was definitely a little star struck.
I have Gibby as my phone background and he got a kick out of that, just before i snapped a pic. on the camera phone.
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
He actually mentioned that in an interview w/Petros and Money during the playoffs (no, i don’t listen to them a lot but usually can handle 10 minutes or so on my way home)
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed…he’s embarrassing sometimes. Okay, most times.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
His voice is brutal
and the man’s job is a radio personality and play by play man for FSN. How is this possible?
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
you would think, on the list of job responsibilities for a broadcaster, the big giant clear number one is “voice”
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
Could he be worse than the Razor
Ralph Barbieri on KNBR? Horrible radio voice, dunno how he has this career.
by Capt Obvious on Nov 23, 2009 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
Just off on a tangent a bit....
Doesn’t anyone think that Torre re-upping is a good sign. I don’t think he would have been so vocal in his wanting to stay on for longer if he didn’t have some solid reassurance from ownership that they were going to go out and get the guys that he wants?
I like it
unless there is some form of gross negligence going on, I am a fan of organizational stability. And yes, I would think Torre wouldn’t want to manage a team he thought would be overly hamstrung to get the players he wants to manage.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
I would think that if Torre wasn't convinced that
ownership was committed to a decent payroll, he would have given one of those “we will see what happens after the next year” quotes.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
I was so tempted to ask him what he thought about the Ownership situation
but held back, tried to keep play it casual lol
William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.
That would have been like a Kobe Bryant being video taped
at the Quizno’s in Newport Beach a few years back when he was pissed.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 23, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
He’s re-upping because he likes the team and in reality where else is he going to go? I don’t think for a minute that there was any reassurance that he’s going to get the guys he wants. Just my $.02.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Yes he's going to keep going because he likes it
He’s long past the time where you retire and enjoy you’re money, he’s obviously thought about it and this is what he wants to do with the rest of his life for now.
Interesting Headline to this article
Don’t give up on him yet.
I don’t think it will happen, but let’s say his first half in ’10 is like his second half in 09?
Hypothetical question of course, but I wonder when the time to give up on Bills would be. I guess when he gets expensive if he’s not producing. When will that be?
I’m simply reserving my right to give up on him at a future date. :)
No, in reality, Billingsley should provide great value to the Dodgers over the next three seasons. If he has a 5.00 ERA in the first half of 2010, the Dodgers will be in trouble and the wolves will be out.
Worst case scenario is that Bills continues to hide some injury, then tries to overcompensate during the spring and early going. He becomes less effective, but not hurt enough to go on the DL, such that he has a month or two of subpar starts, before shutting it down to have surgery.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
If I havn't given up on Stults yet
I sure as hell not giving up on Bills. He’s penciled in as our number 2 in any long term plans I can think of. Unless the Dodgers find a sack with $50 million in it, trading for Halladay this year is completely useless.
At the trading deadline I would somewhat understand the Halladay for Bills trade, because Halladay would be a far more better predicted performer in postseason 2009 than Bills. Next year and beyond, I would not take that bet on even odds.
But on the bright side
We’ll finally see if Eric Stults can pitch more than two good games in a season!:)
I doubt he will be a Dodger in 2010. He is out of options, so unless he makes the club out of spring training he will be gone.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
They will likely sign one or two free agent starters, and will have one or both of McDonald and Elbert as backup options.
Haeger is another option, but I believe he is out of options as well.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Heager was a much better prospect than Stults is. He was ranked as high as the 5th best prospect in 2007 for the White Sox.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/Players/H/Charles-Haeger.shtml
Eric Stults never made any lists
haegar would be a great number 5 man...
if oly ned fins that out
That's because he has sucked
But he is ready to pitch right now, in his prime, and has showed brief moments of above averageness. If he is ever going to put up a good year, it would be next year.
If both are DFAed in the spring, would both get claimed?
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Haeger
for sure. Not sure about Stults but you’d think so.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
“We would like to improve our pitching, especially starting pitching. I don’t believe we can subtract from it in order to improve it.”
Wow, Ned gets it, must be the “good Ned” speaking.
Of course the fact that the only player he is on record as pursuing is over 40 (Mr. Ausmus) only confirms my projections.
Yup
That quote from Ned is exactly right.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Ned has gotten better and better while he’s been on the job, it seems. And even the worst thing he did, the C prospect who shall not be named, seems to be an issue of $ that he couldn’t control.
CARLOS SANTANA
do not be afraid to say the name.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
And with power
that is the kicker. It is easy to have more walks then strikeouts, try doing it and having power. What Brett did in 1980 was amazing. If you throw out the steroid years (Alou, Nomar) Brett is one of the few players to walk more then 50 times and K less then 50 times with a plus .600 slug% since the 1950’s.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
albert?
im not a machine.. im just albert
Came close
career low in strikeouts is 50 (2006)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 11/23/2009.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
yeah but you have to put albert in the categorie of the
great power htiters who never strike out…
the man never strikes out but hits 40 homers and 40 doubles a year he is truly the best htiter ever
he is truly the best htiter ever
[sound of record screeching]
Not so fast my friend.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Not saying Albert isn’t already great (he has a shot to be top 5 for sure), but he hasn’t even sewed up the title of best Cardinal hitter ever yet.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
First 9 seasons
(plus 12 games for Musial in his first cup of coffee in 1941):
The Man – 6070 PA, 172 OPS+
El Hombre – 6082 PA, 172 OPS+
Some great company to be sure.
Musial tacked on another 12 seasons, 6642 PA of a cool 147 OPS+. Still lots of climbing left for Pujols on that mountain.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Pujols and Musial
were both 2nd in MLB in OPS+ during those respective 9-season runs (minimum 3000 PA).
Ted Williams had a 199 OPS+ from 1941-1951, while superfreak Barry Bonds put up a 227 in the Pujols Era.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
Ted Williams is the best hitter ever. I don’t think there’s much debate about that. How many times did he have an OPS below 1.000?
Ted Williams is the best hitter ever. I don’t think there’s much debate about that.
There is plenty of debate about that. Babe Ruth has a legitimate claim as well to that title.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
Ted Williams lost his age 24-26 seasons to World War II, and nearly all of his age 33 and 34 seasons to the Korean War. His career numbers would likely have been all the more ridiculous without those lost seasons.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Yeah, that sucks for him if he cared about his greatness ranking
Called up 2X. That really killed his career stats. Shows that you really can’t compare eras.
Willie Mays says hello
as does Bob Feller. The thing with Ted was that he didn’t just lose time to the wars, he was a fucking flying ace when flying combat planes was as about as risky a proposition as could be. When my Dad graduated from West Point in 1950 you there was no Air Force academy so you could go into the combat pilot program. As I recall he said the majority of his classmates who went into the combat pilot program were dead by the time the Vietnam war had completed. Most didn’t make it past the Korean War.
Ted Williams flew not on in WWII but in Korea. Plenty of guys did that, but plenty of guys also died the 2nd time around if they made it past the first war. Plus the fact he was a world champion fisherman.
Now his head is frozen. Seems silly but if anyone was to ever get cloned I’d vote for Ted.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Frozen! he's was obviously bitter about those lost years
He was obviously looking to improve on those career numbers in the future!
Ted Williams - man's man
Also, he and Boston press hated each other. That’s a plus for him in my book.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Agreed. I’d watch a 10-hour documentary on him
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
It's hard for me not to say that Teddy Ballgame isnt the best hitter ever
But if anyone has the case it’s the Babe. I think it’s kinda like a round robin thing with one of them as 1A and the other as 1B.
The debate may be over in your mind
but many other baseball analysts have yet to put that baby to bed.
I always like to break it down into era’s.
Pre – Integration Era – Babe Ruth
Integration – Steroid Era – Ted Williams
Steroid Era- Barry Bonds
Post Steroid Era – Albert Pujols
with plenty of debate about the Ruth and Williams selections but probably very little with the Bonds and Pujols selections.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Ty Cobb wanted witness to verify, but none of them could stand the son-of-a-bitch when he was alive, so they told him to stick it!
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
So when looking up
crazy post integration numbers this one sticks out. Many of the greatest hitters had terrible SB rates and then there is Honus Wagner.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wagneho01.shtml
The stats we he stole over 700 bases and was only caught 15 times. Evidently they didn’t keep CS stats back in his day.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
who was ty cobb??
what did he do to make him so famous or infamous or whatever
And he did it in the dead ball era
when league averages could be in the .230s
by Capt Obvious on Nov 23, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions
ty cobb could hit homeruns if he wanted to...
but instead he played baseball the right way.. ?
by hitting singles…. and hitt and running…
How Ty Cobb played the game
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 23, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions
Before asking a question like
that we have to know if you are serious or not. If you are, simply got to B-Ref and take a look. Anyone who does not know who Ty Cobb is and follows baseball should take the time to learn about him. I mean that seriously. He was not only one of the greatest players in history but also one of the greatest characters.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
yeah
right after i looked him up and learned about who he was… i read your comment..
Possibly the meanest SOB ever to play the game of baseball
and the best player ever to play before Ruth played, and Cobb was the best at the style of play baseball was before Ruth. Before Ruth made the long ball fashionable, Cobb was hitting for insane averages and stealing tons and tons of bases.
Definitely one of the top 10 players ever, if not top 5.
I’m not condoning this, but this is one of my favorite stories…
Cobb once went into the stands to fight a heckler, and ended up beating him up pretty badly. Turns out the guy didn’t have any hands!!! Cobb was so angry, he uttered one of the more memorable quotes ever: “I don’t care if he ain’t got any feet!”
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
so he was an opposite of ron artest...
like a dennis rodman… he did stuff which was bad but you laughed at it…
like Charles Barkeley!
people only laughed at it because such behavior was more common. That and his rampant racism.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
History does not remember Cobb very well.
I think I know/read what the heckler said to get Cobb upset, which kind of symbolizes the whole pre-integration baseball era.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions
Disclaimer – I know there is no be-all, end-all stat.
The Top 10 all-time OPS+ in basball history (3000 PA min.)
1 Babe Ruth 207, .342 / .474 / .690 / 1.164
2 Ted Williams 191, .344 / .482 / .634 / 1.116
3 Barry Bonds 182, .298 / .444 / .607 / 1.051
4 Lou Gehrig 179, .340 / .447 / .632 / 1.080
5 Rogers Hornsby 175, .358 / .434 / .577 / 1.010
6 Albert Pujols 172, .334 / .427 / .628 / 1.055
7 Mickey Mantle 172, .298 / .421 / .557 / .977
8 Joe Jackson 170, .356 / .423 / .517 / .940
9 Ty Cobb 167, .366 / .433 / .512 / .945
10 Jimmie Foxx 163, .325 / .428 / .609 / 1.038
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
When you throw in the Babe's
accomplishments as a pitcher and how many years he lost pitching I’ve never had a problem calling him the best player in baseball history. I’ll let some others claim someone else as the greatest hitter though I think they are wrong, but when it comes to greatest player, he is the man on the top of the list.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Yes the guy was very good at baseball
To win a World Series game as a pitcher and as a hitter that just about seals it.
I’ve not heard much about his defense in the outfield. Not sure what his UZR was:)
Jimmie Foxx
The guy never gets mentioned with the rest, but man were his numbers insane.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
That was one of my favorite aspects
of the Bill James abstracts, his top player lists and how he came to order them.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I don't think Ned values minor league power
That’s partly to blame why he traded Santana and Bell. It’s all about DEFENSE. An area both of them are still working through.
Tracy Ringolsby = idiot
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10418522/Free-agency-blunders:-10-guys-teams-regret
Free agency blunders: 10 guys teams regret:
Manny Ramirez, LF, Dodgers. Signed to a one-year, $25 million deal prior to 2009 which included a player option at $20 million for 2010. Ultimate statement on this deal is Ramirez is a Scott Boras client, and nobody can control a bidding market like Boras, which means Boras knows there’s nowhere close to that amount available for Ramirez as a free agent. Face it, his numbers were adequate offensively last year, but with his bumbling defense, adequate (.290, 19 HR, 63 RBI) doesn’t cut it. And the Dodgers are a better team with Juan Pierre, who signed a 5-year, $44 million deal before the 2007 season, in left field.
False. False. 1,000 times false.
(thanks to Diamond Leung for the link)
Are you sure its not just bad writing instead of stupidity?
There could be an argument for Juan Pierre in LF and 20 Million to spend on starting pitching. It would be more of an offense/defense discussion then.
Of coarse Manny’s defense was not “bumbling” and was more like adequate.
Yeah, probably bad writing AND stupidity.
Maybe both
I may have a anti-cowboy hat bias
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Except that Manny money is 2yrs/$45M, C.C. money is 7yrs/$161M – the difference in guaranteed dollars is only $116M.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 27, 2009 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
yes that's true however
the yankees overpaid for him, and he was all about coming to NL and california if i recall correctly, probably we could have get him cheaper
I shouldn't have said "idiot"
I vehemently disagree with Ringolsby’s statement about Juan Pierre, but he is not an idiot. He is just wrong in this case.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with what he said about the contract
just not about the team being better with JP in LF.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
But Ringolsby doesn’t touch on the really bad part of the contract, which, as you pointed out yesterday, is the deferred money taxing the payroll for years to come. It’s one thing to drop that much dough on Manny if you have the resource to pay him now, but when you have to “leverage” the deal and “debt-load” the payroll with your own “sub-prime” loan, that’s not great business.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Right
You should have said he looks like an “idiot” in that cowboy hat.
That would have been more objective as it can be empirically proven :)
This offseason
is going to give me a heart attack.
Team DTB. (Don't Trade Billingsley).
by the big grabowski on Nov 23, 2009 4:58 PM PST reply actions
I think this offseason
will find you dying of boredom. I wouldn’t worry too much, I don’t think a lot will happen with our team…
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
not worried
just annoyed
Team DTB. (Don't Trade Billingsley).
by the big grabowski on Nov 23, 2009 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
Definitely
Team DTB. (Don't Trade Billingsley).
by the big grabowski on Nov 23, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
oh yeah?
Team DTB. (Don't Trade Billingsley).
by the big grabowski on Nov 23, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
I used to enjoy reading Ringolsby in the early 80s
But more and more he’s turning into the rocky mountain version of Murray Chass
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man
No
not if we are talking about Padilla and Garland in the rotation.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I don’t think Garland will be back, but I think Padilla will be.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions
Kershaw
Bills
Kuroda
Padilla
PEDRO?
That would be decent. The second lefty/6th starter could be Elbert.
The current rotation depth is, what?
Kershaw
Billingsley
Kuroda
Elbert
McDonald
Stults
Haeger
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
really...
i dont think anyone in the dodgers organization sees elbert as a starter… sad thing.. he would be great..
I still think you read way too much into those postseason quotes.
I would guess Elbert is seen as more of a starter than McDonald right now by the organization
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
Elbert was minor league pitcher of the year…
For that reason, the organization must have at least some sort of favorable opinion of him.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Minus Elbert
I think that’s the starting rotation.
When I look at the secret budget, and I look what it can buy, the in-house alternatives are better.
There’s always a chance Wolf accepts arbitration, but I feel this off-season is going to be all about:
we really really tried to get Halladay type pitcher, but we just couldn’t get Halladay (in small print when offering less than a million). I think Ned will somehow hook a 2nd baseman, but I remember last year everyone was just assuming Dewitt would play 2nd, so not sure why he couldn’t start at 2nd other than Casey will obviously need some backup because he’s old. So maybe just an old second baseman who can play third, some sort of back-up catcher, and a pitcher who can take Motas spot as whipping boy.
I’m not sure why, because they really surprised me last year signing Manny and Odog, maybe Ms. MCourrt was surprised too and that’s why she’s getting the fuck out of dodge. I think maybe once ownership accepts they aren’t going to be owning the team much longer, they will just want to limit any money they put into it assuming they’ll get about the same price either way.
Man, there will be little to discuss other than rampant speculation until at least until Dec. 1, whic is the last date for a former club to offer salary arbitration to their free agent to receive compensation. The last day those player could accept arbitration is Dec. 7.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
There really isn’t a whole lot of reasons for Colletti to make moves until then; that’s when the FA market takes real shape – and Ned can sign his guy when Detroit doesn’t offer Polanco arb. ;)
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
anyone but polanco...
i rather have dejesus with a broken leg then polonco
There's little reason for most teams to make moves before them, right?
Except dealing with your own free agents.
Assume a team agrees to a deal with Orlando Hudson. The Dodgers could then offer arbitration with no worries that he will accept.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
Right
So I guess if there was a Sabathia on the market then something would happen before the arbitration deadline, but since there isn’t, I don’t expect any deals get done before that time….
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
We’ll get an idea how the offseason will go by 12/1. If they don’t offer arb to both Hudson and Wolf… gulp.
I think Wolf will get offered arb, but Hudson will not.
Personally, I would offer arb to Hudson, Wolf, and Belliard.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
NO
no way… not gonna happen…. nada no nno dodgers dont like the guy for some reason.. they yo yo him around like hes blake dewitt..
Yes
He was the minor league pitcher of the year for a reason.
If those stories are to be believe, then McDonald and Elbert can fight it out in the preseason for the number 5 spot.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Eric:
Good commentary. The highlight for me is the “lightning rod” designation. I agree, but at the same time I just don’t get it. If the Dodgers put him on the trading block, how many teams in the league would not call Ned to offer something? It’s ridiculous how he’s so quickly crucified by Dodger fans. Especially on this blog. Wolf, Kershaw, and Kuroda all had ridiculously brutal outings this year, with nary a comment on this blog about how “worthless” they were. Every time Chad struggled he was nailed. Hard. I just don’t understand why he’s held to such a different, higher, standard than every other pitcher. Yes, he struggled mightily in the 2nd half. Is he done? IMHO, no f’ing way. If he has a 1st half next year like his 2nd half next year, I’ll be converted. Until then, back off.
I’m just glad I didn’t say “divining rod” like I said on KABC! :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
Sign of a good, um, journalist is that one learns from his mistakes. :)
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
And if you mentioned “divining rod” to this crowd, they’d just use it as a weapon to shove up Chad’s arse.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
Did you see some of the ridiculous comments on Dodger Thoughts the last two days? It’s one thing for critical comments on Chad to show up in the TBLA game threads, but some things I read today at DT were just ridiculous.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
I read those last night, and I felt like punching something
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Read another Dodger blog?
My blog’s on the floor!
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
I saw the outraged comment because Chad didn’t go head-hunting in the 2008 NLCS. I can’t believe people are still talking about that.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
Jon’s first column was linked here, which might have brought in some first-timer traffic.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
But the guy who linked that is as dumb as Plaschke
and I’ve got “data” to proove it:
http://www.truebluela.com/2009/10/20/1093491/la-times-finds-writer-dumber-than
I just checked the threads out— at most it was 3 unique people calling for Chad’s head, and you never know it might have been the same guy all 3 times.
The moderators are usually pretty good about preventing such a thing (multiple inflammatory posts from the same IP)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
What’s funny, is 2008 was practically the opposite. I remember being concerned with his early struggles, then he went on a tear for the rest of the season. So its not like there is a track record of Chad breaking down in the second half.
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
I have bought into the idea (hope?) that his broken leg affected his conditioning last season and contributed to his second half decline. All we can hope for is a healthy offseason heading into 2010.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
He’s probably on a treadmill right now running miles while watching this thread on a 63 inch HD unit in front of him.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
You never know, he might be engaging in an activity that boxers like to say weakens the legs.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
Again…with this blog on his HD above the bed.
How’s it hanging, Chad?
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
One of my goals for the blog is to gain notoriety by having a player, preferably a famous player, wearing a True Blue LA hat during a nationally televised press conference. I’m thinking much like “The Abbey” hat that Mark McGwire wore in 1998 which led to a surge in “The Abbey” apparel. I even own their hat.
I guess step one is to make True Blue LA hats!
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
Step 0: Design a TBLA logo suitable for product placement.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
can we fit Padma and Zooey, plus the Cheers “We Win” guy in one shot?
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
maybe we can paint over the “200 years of freedom” sign from 33 years ago off to the side of the 91 freeway at the 71.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions
NO!!!!!
Amazing to me that the dam used to have a ton of grafiti but ever since they painted that mural not one bit of ink ever disgraced it.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
Eric has the Stephen brothers curse: a 7 3/4 hat. That “mural” will be fine.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Here's my logo idea
It reads “True Blue LA – See It Now”
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 23, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like it, and for video spots I can be at a typewriter and pull out the paper at the end, then fling it in the air, which will become this logo.
Think Stephen J. Cannell.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
Step 2 is try to sublease ad space from Lumber Liquidators, which apparently has made enough money over the years to purchase behind the plate ad space at nearly every MLB game, and courtside ads for NBA games.
Maybe they got a Tom Emanski / ESPN type deal. :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions
Step 3: get a bluescreen ad behind the plate at a game!
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:20 PM PST up reply actions
I actually bought a few of those hats for me and the kids!
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:17 PM PST up reply actions
Do you still have it? I don’t have mine…damn!
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
That could have been Sherill
If the blog didn’t crucify him when he did his best impression of a Dodger pitcher against the Phillies
Pedro Martinez . . . Konerko . . . Edwin Jackson . . .
any time we want to ditch a good youngster, that’s what I think about. I think about lettin’ the kids go and them becoming HOFers (remains to be seen with Konerko and EJ).
Honestly why can’t we have perfect timing like we did with Hollandsworth and Mondesi? We were done with them pretty early (27 and 28!), we let them go and they basically didn’t do much better anywhere else, and in short dime regressed BIG TIME. You can’t tell me Mondesi didn’t lie about his age by at least 24 months.
I will bet anyone anywhere a billion dollars with a billion to one odds that Paul Konerko won’t make the HOF. :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions
Well ok.
But his career OPS is like way better than Karros & the same as Garvey, two “legendary” Dodger 1Bs.
Wow a billion times a billion … hmm…
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 23, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
What kind of farm system were the Dodgers running in 1993?
As a 20-yr old in AA (San Antonio) in 1993, Hollandsworth put up these numbers: .251 / .294 / .447 / .741 in 503 PAs, with 101 K and 29 BB. The next season, the Dodgers started him in AAA! Talk about rushed.
At least they sold really high on Mondesi and got Shawn Green. When Hollandsworth was dumped, he only fetched the return of Tom Goodwin.
I remember not being happy when the Dodgers traded Ted Sizemore one year removed from ROY honors, and after a .300 season, for Dick Allen. Now that was Al Campanis selling high. As we know, Dick didn’t stick in L.A., but after putting up a 151 OPS+ in his one season here, was swapped for Tommy John, who worked out OK. But Allen won the MVP the next season for the White Sox, the first of three monster years he had there.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Randy Wolf = 'aggressively pursued'
According to Olney. If he signs before Dec 1, then arbitration is a moot point and we get the picks.
I wish a team would hurry and sign Hudson then
Because from what I’ve heard around here we may not even offer him arb.
Teams will wait on Hudson because of the uncertainly you mentioned.
Hopefully Wolf goes somewhere that DOESN’T sign multiple free agents.
I think the only players that will be higher ranked than Wolf are
Holliday, Bay, Lackey, and maybe one or two others. Hopefully anyway.
The official Elias numbers haven't yet been released
only the rankings have. But Eddie Bajek has been doing a great job all year of tracking potential Elias numbers, and only had a few errors in his Type A/B projections. Here is his list.
A quick search reveals the following free agents who rank higher than Wolf:
Matt Holliday
Jayson Bay
John Lackey
Rafael Soriano
Mike Gonzalez
Orlando Hudson
Bengie Molina
Marco Scutaro
Johnny Damon
Vlad Guerrero
I may have missed a few
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
There are a lot of flaws in the ranking system Elias uses, but it won’t change the facts.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions
Marco Scutaro’s #1 similarity score (945) at his current age is Johnny Berardino, who is more famous to my wife for having played Dr. Steve Hardy on “General Hospital” for 33 years. He actually has a large number of acting credits. I’ll bet Eric saw him in “Young Doctors In Love”.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Yes it was
Last year Hudson was a Type A, with an Elias score of 79.911. Wolf was a Type B at 65.550, but was not offered arbitration.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-11-05-elias-player-rankings_N.htm
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
Wolf was more valuable for providing wins last year
But I see from the link that these are projections based upon how well each player ranks in his position. So Hudson was a better 2nd baseman among his peers than Wolf was a starting pitcher I guess.
I found the 2009 rankings
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2009-11-16-complete-elias-rankings_N.htm?csp=34
Type A free agents
Matt Holliday 95.96
Jose Valverde 89.874
Jason Bay 89.859
Johnny Damon 85.634
Mike Gonzalez 84.268
John Lackey 83.865
Rafael Soriano 83.667
Marco Scutaro 83.069
Orlando Hudson 82.488
Miguel Tejada 81.143
Bengie Molina 81.224
Orlando Cabrera 78.307
Randy Wolf 77.778
Billy Wagner 76.377
LaTroy Hawkins 76.344
Jermaine Dye 76.338
Darren Oliver 75.543
Kevin Gregg 75.114
Placido Polanco 74.286
Chone Figgins 73.684
Octavio Dotel 68.007
If Wolf and/or Hudson is offered arbitration, and happens to sign with a team that also signs another arb-offered player above them on this list then the Dodgers would get a compensation pick one round lower for each other player signed by said team.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
One more Type A
Rafael Betancourt 75.83
Also, apparently Orlando Cabrera can’t be offered arbitration, per terms of his contract, so his score is irrelevant for our purposes.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
Ned’s new 2B.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 23, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
2010 MLB draft order
1st round
Protected picks (if they sign a Type A free agent, the first pick they would give up is a 2nd rounder)
1) Nats
2) Pirates
3) Orioles
4) Royals
5) Indians
6) D-Backs
7) Mets
8) Astros
9) Padres
10) A’s
11) Jays
12) Reds
13) White Sox
14) Brewers
16) Cubs
Unprotected picks (if they sign a Type A free agent, the first pick they would give up is a 1st rounder)
17) Rays
18) Mariners
19) Tigers
20) Braves
21) Twins
22) Rangers
23) Marlins
24) Giants
25) Cards
26) Rockies
27) Phillies
28) Dodgers
29) Red Sox
30) Angels
32) Yankees
Picks 15 (Rangers) and 31 (Rays) are compensation for unsigned 2009 first rounders, and are not subject to free agent compensation.
So the best case scenario for the Dodgers in the draft is to offer arbitration to both Wolf and Hudson, and have them sign with Tampa Bay and Seattle. Then those teams can’t sign any Type As who were offered arbitration who rank higher than Hudson and/or Wolf. The Dodgers would get the #17 and #18 picks as compensation in that scenario
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
alright lets check out the possible suiters for wolf from 17 on
Rays; no
mariners: maybe
tigers: no, money issues
Braves: no
Twins: no
Rangers: Hopefully!!!!!!! this might be the best but no money either…
Marlins: no
Giants: no.. dont wanna give up first rounder plus have other options and need offense
cards: no
rockies; no
phillies: no
red sox; no
Angels; no
Yankees; Possible/.
so i really doubt the dodgers get a first round pick out of wolf… they will probably end up with a cempensation first rounder i nthe high 30s and a 2nd rounder which would not be bad at all..
by matthewmafa on Nov 23, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
that sounds about right. Brewers might be a destination for Wolf, which wouldn’t be so bad either.
Last year there were 17 supplemental picks in between rounds 1 & 2, so if the Brewers sign Wolf, the Dodgers would get something like picks #42 (supplemental) and #63 (2nd round #14).
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 10:22 PM PST up reply actions
Mets I guess too, which would net a better 2nd round pick (#56 or so)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
yeahhh
i really think the mets will sign him.. mets or brewers.. like u said
by matthewmafa on Nov 23, 2009 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
I just hope if it’s the Mets they don’t decide to get Holliday or Bay too, pushing Wolf’s compensation down a round.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 10:30 PM PST up reply actions
o wow!!!
that would suck… like the blue jays getting a 4throunder or something for burnet..
it would be a 3rd rounder for us wow that would sukc
by matthewmafa on Nov 23, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions
because cards like to get themselves some reclamation pitchers
for the end of their rotations after carp and wainright and lohse… so i really doubt they would pay 3 years 25 or more for wolf.. dave duncan can just work himself some magic..
and the phils have hamels lee blanton happ moyer, kyle kendrick who can start.. and they probably dont want to block their top prospect drabek..
by matthewmafa on Nov 23, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
I did see a report on a Seattle newspaper web site indicating contact between Seattle and Hudson….
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 23, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
Are we now rooting to get the 18th pick?
by Julio Nievas on Nov 24, 2009 12:02 AM PST up reply actions
I’d take it, assuming Hudson wants out. L.A. lost the #17 pick for signing him, so that would make that about a wash.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Nov 24, 2009 12:14 AM PST up reply actions
Zero chance of a resign of Hudson. As much as I want that, no way he wants to come back to Torre.
by KellyStephen on Nov 23, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions
That's why there should be no doubt of Arbitration being offered
So Im not sure why so many people think we won’t offer.
The argument is something like:
If he doesn’t think he’ll get a good offer because teams view him as risky, accepting arb – where he can get maybe $7M – might be the way for him to get the most money, and if the Dodgers don’t want him back at that price, they might not take the risk that he’ll accept.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Pechanga using Boston’s “More Than a Feeling” in a TV commercial gets my seal of approval.
Watching replay of 1987 NBA Finals Game 4.
As does it mine
Boston is all-time favorite band and that is their flagship song, I love it when i hear it in shows on TV and stuff. Scrubs FTW!
incredibly fun song to play on Rock Band!
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions
Boston seems to have a knack for singing relatively normal then, seemingly out of nowhere hitting a register that would make Peter Cetera cringe. :)
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:18 PM PST up reply actions
Haha
No one can sing like Brad Delp could, it was almost like how Freddie Mercury was (though not to the same level). The vocals and the guitar of Boston makes them so amazing, I just wish I could have been able to see them play live.
I’ll always be bitter than my sister got to see them at the last Arrowfest a few years ago.
So when is the TBLA Rock Band event? Andrew might even make a special return appearance for that!
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
We will definitely have to make that happen at some point. Excellent idea.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
Don’t remember the Greg Kite / James Worthy dustup near the end of the 2nd half. Both players threw punches in a skirmish, in an incident that would cause the internet to explode if it happened today. They both just got double technicals, though.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
Also
Magic nearly hit a 75 footer to end the first half.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions
This just in
Once James Worthy turns to face the basket, it’s over.
by Eric Stephen on Nov 23, 2009 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
why punch the only good player or one of the better players on the team… go punch the damn defense not the great jimmy clausen
He was probably pissed at the fumble the refs ruled UCONN recovered, which cost them the game.
by Julio Nievas on Nov 23, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions
Pretty late, but the Outside The Line segment was on Belichick decision to go 4 and 2.(Yes, I know its been beaten to death.) But the funnier part was that they interviewed three coaches for the segment, Steve Mariucci, Brian Billick, and Bill Belichick taped back in 2002.
Mariucci, and Bilick made fun of the study that claimed that going on 4th down is a good idea, and Belichick said he found it extremely intresting and noteworthy and decided to implement it. Of course Maricucci and Bilick are out of jobs, and Belichick is the one with 3 superbowl wins. But it just goes to shows you that guys who claim to know everything like Bilick did sure are ignorant of some stuff. =P
I guess you’re right. But the man did win a title back in 2000.
by Julio Nievas on Nov 23, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
Belichick has won
because he got lucky with his quarterbacks. And because he cheated. And because the refs had it out for the Raiders in playoffs. Without Tom Brady the guy is mediocre.
by Ian Capilouto on Nov 24, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
Billick? An offensive guru?
His best offense was in ’03. All the other years he coached the Ravens, his O was average..
But when he was on OC in Minnesota
even before Moss came to town, those teams scored points!
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 24, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
About half the voters in this poll want to trade Bills for Halladay, if Halladay signs a “long-term extension”, which I would guess would be four years. That would have Halladay here for his age 33 to 37 seasons.
Halladay, age 25-32: 238 starts, 1710 1/3 IP, two shortened seasons of 21 and 19 starts at ages 27 and 28.
Kevin Brown, age 25-32: 244 starts, 1702 IP, two shortened seasons of 26 starts each at ages 25 and 30.
From age 33 to 37, Kevin Brown, also known as a workhorse, had three outstanding seasons, followed by his two injury-plagued ones, one with 19 starts (and he was good), one with 17 games and 10 starts where he was bad.
There is no guarantee that Halladay will stay healthy through an extension.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
No guarantee
But Halladay’s workout regiment is impressive. I read he wakes up at 5 a.m. to workout and is known as being obsessive compulsive on all aspects in health and fitness.
His fastball isn’t going blow people away, but he has excellent control and has 4 plus pitches. He’s 32, but I believe Halladay will continue to be in his prime the next 4 years. My opinion anyway
by Julio Nievas on Nov 24, 2009 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
Of coarse there was not the
“You can’t add to the pitching staff through subtraction, sign a top tier free agent you cheap bastard (and who wrote this stupid poll anyway!)” option
I would have voted for that and I’m sure many of the masses would have to. Those polls are basically push polls.
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2334811.html
Dusty Baker’s father passed away this week.
Without his father’s permission, Dusty Baker signed a contract with the Atlanta Braves after graduating from Del Campo, despite having a basketball scholarship to Santa Clara. His father filed a lawsuit against the Braves and won, withholding half the signing bonus until Dusty was 21. If Dusty Baker were to attend college today, his father arranged it so the Braves would still have to pay his tuition.
Dusty’s dad apprently didn’t think his son made the best choice he could. =P
Dusty would be well served by a college degree. Maybe it’d prevent him from saying dumb things like “clogging the bases” and having young pitchers throw 125 + pitches again and again . . .
by Seanny Rotten on Nov 24, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
I'm warming to the idea of Hu being the everyday 2B
We all know the glove is ridiculous, but the bat still has some potential assuming his eye problem isn’t an issue.
Yeah, I know it’s a pipedream because Torre probably hates his offense, but the kid can pick it better than almost anyone.
I hate to say that I think his window has closed in this organization.
How many options does he have left?
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