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The All-Time LA Dodger Team: The #4 Starter

All-Time Lineup#1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6 | #7 | #8
All-Time Starting Pitchers#1 | #2 | #3

"And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand
It's not my problem"

Bob Dylan, Positively 4th Street

So far the votes for our starting pitching staff have been runaways, but these top three are pretty solid.

All-Time LA Dodger Starting Pitchers

No Player Pos
32 Sandy Koufax
LHP
53 Don Drysdale RHP
55
Orel Hershiser RHP
 
 

Will we have our first close vote, for the fourth starter?  To determine the #4 starter, the voting is the same as before, except that Koufax, Drysdale, and Orel are no longer eligible.

Eric's Pick

I'm sticking with Don Sutton, but let's look at some numbers, with Claude Osteen and Happy Hooton replacing Orel on the charts.  Here are the top 5 seasons by ERA+

Osteen Hooton Sutton Valenzuela Brown Messersmith
127 147 161 141 169 149
124 146 160 135 169 132
117 130 144 122 143 129
115 123 127 116 --- ---
105 121 121 110 --- ---

Here are at the best five seasons using VORP:

Osteen Hooton Valenzuela Sutton Brown Messersmith
69.4 57.8 54.6 62.3 82.6 84.4
54.5 51.6 48.9 61.0 71.6 67.3
47.2 46.3 44.4 57.5 63.4 46.9
35.2 34.1 43.3 52.0 32.5 1.1
33.7 30.9 32.1 51.5 0.8 ---

I think Sutton is still the cream of the crop.  However, the first three on our all-time pitching staff have won Cy Young Awards, and the only other LA Dodger starter to win the award, Fernando Valenzuela, is also out there.  Claude Osteen actually has the second-highest 5-, 6-, 7-, and 8-year VORP of this group, behind Sutton.  For this vote, I'm sticking with Suttonmania.

Phil's Pick

Fernando but I'm feeling sad for Osteen. Didn't he have huge ears like Sutton? Don't a lot of pitchers have big ears?

Who's your pick?

 

Poll
Who is the #4 Starter on the All-Time LA Dodger Team?
Don Sutton
66 votes
Claude Osteen
3 votes
Fernando Valenzuela
92 votes
Bob Welch
2 votes
Burt Hooton
2 votes
Kevin Brown
13 votes
Andy Messersmith
6 votes

184 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 12 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The man that gave the Dodgers the key to the rest of LA

Fernando Valenzuela.

Not sure how aware people are, but a certain, fairly sizable, population of Angelenos despised the Dodgers for moving in and tearing down their neighborhood. Fernando made everything ok. Yes this is an emotional pick, but so what.

by mr_blond on Feb 4, 2009 9:06 PM PST reply actions  

I understand not giving him any of the top 3 spots

But now that we’re down to #4, doesn’t Hideo Nomo at least belong on the balot? His top 4 years (in ERA+) ran 150, 130, 122, 112.

by Malcontent1 on Feb 4, 2009 10:21 PM PST reply actions  

Good point

I’ll be sure to include Nomo in the poll for #5.

His top 5 VORP years:

55.9 (‘95)
54.4 (’03)
50.5 (‘96)
38.7 (’02)
22.7 (’97)

On par with the rest of them, including Fernando.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Feb 4, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Chan Ho Park

If Nomo’s going to be in the running for #5, Chan Ho definitely should be. Reading back on a few posts about him in the archives, I can’t understand why there’s been such a negative perception about his performance. If it was leaving to sign with the Rangers, well, the game’s a business. If it was his performance after he left, he had to battle quite a bit of injuries. Park > Nomo for the 5 or 6 games that I’ve seen each of them pitch. Just saying.

by soccerman8 on Feb 5, 2009 12:02 AM PST reply actions  

Only counting numbers as LA Dodgers

Park’s suckitude with the Rangers has no effect on his standing here.

I would argue Nomo was a better Dodger. Nomo had 3 seasons with 50+ VORP, while Chan Ho had 1 (plus a 49.5 in 2002).

Park’s best 5 years in VORP:

62.7 (‘00)
49.5 (’01)
37.7 (‘97)
33.8 (’98)
19.8 (’96)

Park’s best 5 years add up to 203.5 VORP, versus 222.2 for Nomo. Park did have the best single season among them, however.

I’ll add Park to the final poll, but neither he nor Nomo will win anyway.

-Eric

by Eric Stephen on Feb 5, 2009 12:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Kung Fu

By the way, from a white man who by no means is an authority on martial arts, I do believe his kick on Belcher should be called a taekwondo kick and not a kung fu kick. He’s Korean, not Chinese.

by soccerman8 on Feb 5, 2009 12:05 AM PST reply actions  

Fernando

Simply because the other option was Sutton, and I didn’t want 3 righties in a row and then 2 lefties at #5 and #1. :o

by Chad Moriyama on Feb 5, 2009 4:07 AM PST reply actions  

El Toro

The Pride of Navojoa gets my vote.

by Bob Hendley on Feb 5, 2009 1:23 PM PST reply actions  

Starting early

for Brown over Sutton.

Fernando was my pick here. I get Eric’s Sutton arguments and I also know Brown is too hated to win, but I do think he has the better position for the #5 spot. The only thing Sutton has in his favor is longevity with the Dodgers. I do think that counts for something, but Brown was considerably better at his best than Sutton was at his best. Also, the selection of “best five years” is as arbitrary as “best three” or “best eight” and is really tailor made to put Sutton in the best light.

So, since this is a fantasy team, I am going to put forth a fantasy argument for considering “best” over “longest.” This is the fifth spot in the rotation. This will be the guy that sees the least action. You don’t need or even want a workhorse here. You want a guy that will give you the best performance during the limited time he will be on the mound during the season. That guy is Kevin Brown.

by Paul Scott on Feb 5, 2009 5:27 PM PST reply actions  

Persuasive

I also chose Fernanado over Sutton, thinking who I would want on the mound. I could go for Brownie as well on that basis

by Bob Hendley on Feb 5, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Fernando

I think Sutton may be the best pitcher on this list, but my vote goes to Fernando. When I was 10 years old, he was nearly a god and that counts more than any stat you could give me. An LA Dodger all-star squad without Fernando isn’t an LA Dodger team at all. No matter what I see in baseball from here on out, nothing will ever feel as magical as Fernando in 81.

by IndianaJon on Feb 6, 2009 7:36 AM PST reply actions  

I find it hard to be objective but I just don’t care. For brief periods Orel and Fernando just dominated and the Dodgers rode each to a World Championship. To my mind they have to follow the first pair. (Unfortunately it is possible each worked so hard in that championship year that they were never quite the same).

by Gen3blu on Feb 6, 2009 8:19 AM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


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2012 Dodgers Payroll

Italics denote estimates
Pos No Player 2012 Salary
C 17 Ellis $500,000 team control
1B 7 Loney $6,375,000
2B 14 Ellis $2,500,000
3B 5 Uribe $8,000,000
SS 9 Gordon $485,000 team control
LF 21 Rivera $4,000,000
CF 27 Kemp $10,000,000
RF 16 Ethier $10,950,000

IF/OF 6 Hairston $2,250,000
OF 10 Gwynn $850,000
2B/3B 3 Kennedy $800,000
C 18 Treanor $850,000
IF 12 Sellers $485,000 team control

SP 22 Kershaw $6,000,000
SP 58 Billingsley $9,000,000
SP 29 Lilly $12,000,000
SP 35 Capuano $3,000,000
SP 44
Harang $3,000,000

CL 54 Guerra $485,000 team control
RHP 74
Jansen $500,000 team control
RHP 55 Guerrier $4,750,000
RHP 60 Coffey $1,000,000
RHP 66 MacDougal $650,000
LHP 57 Elbert $485,000 team control
RHP 36
Hawksworth $500,000 team control

TJ 41 De La Rosa $485,000 team control



Manny $8,087,432 deferred


Andruw $3,375,000 deferred


Pierre $3,050,000 deferred
Furcal $3,000,000 deferred
Kuroda $2,000,000 deferred
Garland $1,500,000 option buyout
Blake $1,250,000 option buyout

Totals
$112,162,432

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Players on 40-man roster used as roster
fillers until moves are made.

Current 40-man roster count: 40
(not including Belisario)

2012 Non-Roster Invitees

No Player Age*
63 Jose Ascanio rhp
27
61 Alberto Castillo lhp
36
56 Matt Chico lhp
29
33 John Grabow lhp
33
59 Angel Guzman rhp
30
47 Wil Ledezma lhp
31
72 Shane Lindsay rhp
27
62 Fernando Nieve rhp 29
73 Scott Rice lhp 30
70 Will Savage rhp
27
71 Ryan Tucker rhp
25
28 Jamey Wright rhp
37

30 Josh Bard c 34
82 Griff Erickson c 24
81 Matt Wallachc 26
67 Jeff Baisley 3b/1b 29
65 Luis Cruz ss/2b 28
37 Josh Fields 3b 29
64 Lance Zawadzki if 27
56 Cory Sullivan of 32

*Age on June 30, 2012

NRI count: 20

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