Its Time To Scrap The Thirteen Pitcher Idea
The Dodgers have had 13 pitchers on their 25-man roster for 30 of 58 days so far this season, and everyday but three since April 30. With Hiroki Kuroda out since opening day, and the bottom two spots of the starting staff averaging about 4½ innings per start, there was a time when it didn't seem like such a bad idea.
I am an advocate of the 11-man pitching staff, mostly because of the flexibility it gives a team offensively, but I have come to terms that 12-man staffs are just a sign of the times. The Dodgers, even without Manny Ramirez, have about as stable a lineup one through eight as you will find, so perhaps a shortened bench isn't such a hindrance.
But the 13-man pitching staff has run its course. For me, the tipping point was last night, when pitcher Eric Milton pinch-hit for Kuroda in the fifth inning. It was the third time since April 30 the Dodgers have used a pitcher to pinch hit (although one of those times was a sacrifice opportunity). That just seems like two or three times too many.
Joe Torre doesn't like to use his backup catcher as a pinch-hitter, so our four-man bench is really a three-man bench. Last night, all three "real" pinch-hitters (Rafael Furcal, Casey Blake, and Jamie Hoffmann) were eventually used in that role. Kuroda is now back. We don't need as much insurance in the bullpen, especially once Kuroda starts pitching deeper into games.
If Blake and Furcal, who are nursing injuries, need a few more days off, why not call up Blake DeWitt (who played SS last night)? The concern with DeWitt was that he wouldn't get enough ABs with the big club, but now seems like as good a time as any to call him up. He could spot start for Blake and Furcal as needed and get 10-12 plate appearances a week.
It's time to have a real bench to work with, so Torre doesn't have to use pitchers to pinch-hit anymore.
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Agree
Doesn’t really seem to be a need for Schlichting. Joe is not going to use him unless the game gets away and our pitching staff rarely lets a game get away. With Kuroda back I don’t really see the need for him. Leach has a 5.14 ERA but his FIP is only 2.55 and we probably need the left hander.
DeWitt makes the most sense since he can play 2nd/SS/3rd. If we need an outfielder he can play 3rd and Blake can hit the outfield. If we need a 1st, he can play 3rd and Blake can play 1st. Loretta is just not very useful against RHP so the bench at times would be Loretta, Castro, Ausmus, Hoffman so are very vulnerable to hard throwing RHP relief pitching when we need to call upon pinch hitters.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I think they wait until Sunday
With Milton and Kuroda due for one more rotation and no off days until then, I don’t think the Dodgers lower their staff until then.
After Sunday, the Dodgers only have to use a 5th starter 3 times until the All-Star Break and they won’t need one for two weeks. Milton can join Weaver in the long man role, though he probably won’t be considered a LOOGY. My guess is that Ohman may go and pitch some rehab just to build up some arm strength.
Ultimately, a lot of this rest on if Kuroda can join Billingsley and Wolf and pitch into the 7th inning on a consistent basis, if he can do that, then you might see the 12 man staff once the Dodgers start having to use their full rotation on a full-time basis after the ASB.
I think you are right
then they can also use off days to bolster the pitching staff as well
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree with you more
having to use a pitcher to PH (even if an admittedly early PH spot) was the tipping point for me. That simply should not happen.
I do agree with BH, though I don’t think this experiment will last long. My assumption was that they were nervous about Kuroda’s coming back, wanted to make sure he was healthy and looking good — and now that he is, and can probably start to work longer with each outing, that extra pitcher becomes even more pointless.
So yeah, that plus the off days and I would be very surprised if they don’t call up a position player (and it really should be DeWitt imho) within the week.
Btw, the picture above did make me laugh. What is she, like 4’8 or something? Not much call for short pitchers ’round these parts, but she sure is cute as the dickens!
I love that picture
almost as much as this:
Casey Blake is listed at 6’2" BTW
Photo credit: Dodgers
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
He sure gave her
an uncomfortably long hug. But it was in a kind of “you’re as cute as a teddy bear” kinda way.
I'd give her a long hug myself
Have to show that shot to my wife, she’s right at 5 feet and struggling mightily to stay above it as gravity pushes her down every year.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
There's also this photo
interviewing with Michael Eaves:
Photo credit: Dodgers
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Olympic gold medal gymnast Shawn Johnson
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
She was also on Dancing With the Stars, which probably amplified her popularity tenfold.
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Now I remember
she looks better with her hair down, but that goes without saying.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
My thinking
is that they can call-up DeWitt to play 3B or SS in all of those games. This way, Blake and Furcal can rotate in the DH spot.
That seems right
By then, Kuroda will hopefully have built up his arm strength so he can go longer too.
Regarding the PH differences, NL teams on average use a PH 1.62 times per game, while AL teams only do 0.46 times per game. Even factoring in the extra roster spot with the DH, the NL still comes out ahead in player usage.
by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the BTF link, Tripon
without that link, Rob Neyer wouldn’t have seen the article, and wouldn’t have linked to it!
Way to go Eric
Rob mentions how foolhardy it is to have this 13 man staff but I like what one commentator said. Is this Ned’s way of making sure Joe doesn’t kill the bullpen because he has been known to do that. Jon Weisman has run the numbers for the bullpen and so far the usage pattern is just fine. Maybe Joe needs 13 and with a lead like we have losing a game because of a short bench might be better then losing the effectiveness of the bullpen come October.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
In defense ...
I’ve been meaning to research how often non-starting Dodger pitchers have hit since they went to 13 men. If it’s only happening once every week or two, is that a big problem compared to being able to use precisely the right pitcher when you want to and make sure everyone’s rested? I’m typically against huge bullpens, but I still think the 2009 Dodgers might be the exception.
I don't see a problem
with using a hitter like Wolf or Milton in the 5th inning as a pinch hitter with the bases empty. I just don’t see how the 13th pitcher is being used enough to make it worthwhile. The bench is weak enough against RHP as it is that having the extra LH pinch hitter might be more useful then the 13th pitcher who only mops up, given how few mop up games we have.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
That's a fair point
and I actually forgot to include the reliever PAs, but I looked it up…
Dodger non-starting pitchers have batted 10 times in 30 games in May & June, so once every three games.
with Tron Tron and Belly
pitching multiple innings is that really something that should be factored in. I’d rather have them going for that 2nd inning then letting some of the other less quality pitchers get their hand on the ball.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I think all bullpens
Should work this way. I’m not sure why they don’t.
by Brendan Scolari on Jun 2, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
After 53 games the only active
Dodgers with a .500 slugS% are Blake and Pierre. I’d have lost the house on that one.
The highest active OPS belongs to Pierre at .933. I’d have lost the 2nd house on that one.
Russell Martin with a slug percent (.318) lower then Juan Pierre’s batting average (.382). I’d have lost my left testicle on that one.
Juan Pierre with highest active OPS+ at 147. I’d have lost my right testicle on that one.
Good thing I stopped betting on baseball.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
bring back pinch hitting extraordinaire olmedo saenz
Dodgers - 2008 NL West Champions
Cardinals - 2008 NFC Champions
Matt Stairs should be a Dodger
David Delucci sure lost it quick. Probably my imagination but it seems like older players are losing it much faster post testing once they get injured.
If Casey Blake can maintain this type of production he is going to have an historic season for his age at his position for a non HOF player, non future HOF player, non admitted steroid user. Then again that is why they play 162 games and why it weighs heavily against the aged.
http://www.bb-ref.com/play-index/shareit/phfx
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Matt Stairs would be a perfect fit as a pinch hitter.
A lefty with pop. Too bad the Phillies are a contender.
by Brendan Scolari on Jun 2, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
This is basically how my conversation with Jacob Burch started before Game 4 of the NLCS. It’s why he blames me for the loss. :)
by Eric Stephen on Jun 3, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I don;t mind
the Dodgers using Milton as a pinch hitter. I do mind him swinging at the first pitch for an easy out. At least make the other pitcher throw 3 pitches minimum.
by robotmadeofnails on Jun 2, 2009 2:09 PM PDT reply actions
I agree with this strategy. Going forward, all pitchers hitting in non-sacrifice situations should at the very least take two strikes, and in some cases, take three. :)
I've actually advocated something like this before
particularly with really crappy hitting pitchers in a situation where a bunt does no good yet there could be a GIDP. I’ve argued to simply stand up there and put the “take” sign on for every pitch.
by Michael White on Jun 2, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Fits in nicely
with the girl throwing out the first pitch. Bet they couldn’t throw Shannon three strikes.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Now we're talking
during the pennant race when rosters expand, the Dodgers should offere a contract to someone 4 foot 10 or shorter who could be a pinch-“taking every single pitch” specialist.
by Michael White on Jun 2, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
She's really short?
I didn’t know that.
by Brendan Scolari on Jun 2, 2009 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think she's that short
seems averagish to me
by Eric Stephen on Jun 3, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I like how the ESPN guy referenced your article
But then he then went on to wonder why we don’t have any “long man” relievers where this has pretty much been Weaver’s entire role since he left the rotation and is a specialist position we can have exactly because we have the 13 pitcher roster. The ESPN guy should have just provided the link and quite while he was ahead, maybe he should get your number.
I don’t have any problem with having your best hitting pitchers hit instead of a mediocre bench warmer. Ideally you would have some better hitting pitchers than we have this year as we have in the past, but there isn’t any reason why a pitcher roster spot shouldn’t be used for offense.
I think this luxury was really just luck since our defensive specialist suddenly decided he could hit. Whatever Torre is doing, he’s doing something right, because the team ERA is ridiculously low compared to the expectations coming into the season and I think that’s beyond accepting a position with a NL West club. I think limiting our pitchers to what they can handle and not stretching them out has been a big part of the success.

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