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Its Time To Scrap The Thirteen Pitcher Idea

The Dodgers have had 13 pitchers on their 25-man roster for 30 of 58 days so far this season, and everyday but three since April 30.  With Hiroki Kuroda out since opening day, and the bottom two spots of the starting staff averaging about 4½ innings per start, there was a time when it didn't seem like such a bad idea.

I am an advocate of the 11-man pitching staff, mostly because of the flexibility it gives a team offensively, but I have come to terms that 12-man staffs are just a sign of the times.  The Dodgers, even without Manny Ramirez, have about as stable a lineup one through eight as you will find, so perhaps a shortened bench isn't such a hindrance.

But the 13-man pitching staff has run its course.  For me, the tipping point was last night, when pitcher Eric Milton pinch-hit for Kuroda in the fifth inning.  It was the third time since April 30 the Dodgers have used a pitcher to pinch hit (although one of those times was a sacrifice opportunity).  That just seems like two or three times too many.

Joe Torre doesn't like to use his backup catcher as a pinch-hitter, so our four-man bench is really a three-man bench.  Last night, all three "real" pinch-hitters (Rafael Furcal, Casey Blake, and Jamie Hoffmann) were eventually used in that role.  Kuroda is now back.  We don't need as much insurance in the bullpen, especially once Kuroda starts pitching deeper into games.

If Blake and Furcal, who are nursing injuries, need a few more days off, why not call up Blake DeWitt (who played SS last night)?  The concern with DeWitt was that he wouldn't get enough ABs with the big club, but now seems like as good a time as any to call him up.  He could spot start for Blake and Furcal as needed and get 10-12 plate appearances a week.

It's time to have a real bench to work with, so Torre doesn't have to use pitchers to pinch-hit anymore. 

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Agree

Doesn’t really seem to be a need for Schlichting. Joe is not going to use him unless the game gets away and our pitching staff rarely lets a game get away. With Kuroda back I don’t really see the need for him. Leach has a 5.14 ERA but his FIP is only 2.55 and we probably need the left hander.

DeWitt makes the most sense since he can play 2nd/SS/3rd. If we need an outfielder he can play 3rd and Blake can hit the outfield. If we need a 1st, he can play 3rd and Blake can play 1st. Loretta is just not very useful against RHP so the bench at times would be Loretta, Castro, Ausmus, Hoffman so are very vulnerable to hard throwing RHP relief pitching when we need to call upon pinch hitters.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 10:59 AM PDT reply actions  

I think they wait until Sunday

With Milton and Kuroda due for one more rotation and no off days until then, I don’t think the Dodgers lower their staff until then.

After Sunday, the Dodgers only have to use a 5th starter 3 times until the All-Star Break and they won’t need one for two weeks. Milton can join Weaver in the long man role, though he probably won’t be considered a LOOGY. My guess is that Ohman may go and pitch some rehab just to build up some arm strength.

Ultimately, a lot of this rest on if Kuroda can join Billingsley and Wolf and pitch into the 7th inning on a consistent basis, if he can do that, then you might see the 12 man staff once the Dodgers start having to use their full rotation on a full-time basis after the ASB.

by bhsportsguy on Jun 2, 2009 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

I think you are right

then they can also use off days to bolster the pitching staff as well

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree with you more

having to use a pitcher to PH (even if an admittedly early PH spot) was the tipping point for me. That simply should not happen.

I do agree with BH, though I don’t think this experiment will last long. My assumption was that they were nervous about Kuroda’s coming back, wanted to make sure he was healthy and looking good — and now that he is, and can probably start to work longer with each outing, that extra pitcher becomes even more pointless.

So yeah, that plus the off days and I would be very surprised if they don’t call up a position player (and it really should be DeWitt imho) within the week.

Btw, the picture above did make me laugh. What is she, like 4’8 or something? Not much call for short pitchers ’round these parts, but she sure is cute as the dickens!

by underdog on Jun 2, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions  

I love that picture

almost as much as this:

Casey Blake is listed at 6’2" BTW

Photo credit: Dodgers

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

He sure gave her

an uncomfortably long hug. But it was in a kind of “you’re as cute as a teddy bear” kinda way.

by underdog on Jun 2, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd give her a long hug myself

Have to show that shot to my wife, she’s right at 5 feet and struggling mightily to stay above it as gravity pushes her down every year.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's also this photo

interviewing with Michael Eaves:

Photo credit: Dodgers

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

That is awesome.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

So who is this person?

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions  

She was also on Dancing With the Stars, which probably amplified her popularity tenfold.

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Now I remember

she looks better with her hair down, but that goes without saying.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t every woman?

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

whose taller, Johnson or Eckstein? :)

by Big Blue on Jun 2, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

There’s no need for PHs for games with the DH, so it’ll be easier to carry a short bench.

by Tripon on Jun 2, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

My thinking

is that they can call-up DeWitt to play 3B or SS in all of those games. This way, Blake and Furcal can rotate in the DH spot.

by silverwidow on Jun 2, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

That seems right

By then, Kuroda will hopefully have built up his arm strength so he can go longer too.

Regarding the PH differences, NL teams on average use a PH 1.62 times per game, while AL teams only do 0.46 times per game. Even factoring in the extra roster spot with the DH, the NL still comes out ahead in player usage.

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the BTF link, Tripon

without that link, Rob Neyer wouldn’t have seen the article, and wouldn’t have linked to it!

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Way to go Eric

Rob mentions how foolhardy it is to have this 13 man staff but I like what one commentator said. Is this Ned’s way of making sure Joe doesn’t kill the bullpen because he has been known to do that. Jon Weisman has run the numbers for the bullpen and so far the usage pattern is just fine. Maybe Joe needs 13 and with a lead like we have losing a game because of a short bench might be better then losing the effectiveness of the bullpen come October.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lineup prediction for tonight

Pierre
Furcal
Hudson
Loney
Blake
Ethier
Kemp
Ausmus
Wolf

by silverwidow on Jun 2, 2009 1:05 PM PDT reply actions  

In defense ...

I’ve been meaning to research how often non-starting Dodger pitchers have hit since they went to 13 men. If it’s only happening once every week or two, is that a big problem compared to being able to use precisely the right pitcher when you want to and make sure everyone’s rested? I’m typically against huge bullpens, but I still think the 2009 Dodgers might be the exception.

by JonWeisman on Jun 2, 2009 1:21 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't see a problem

with using a hitter like Wolf or Milton in the 5th inning as a pinch hitter with the bases empty. I just don’t see how the 13th pitcher is being used enough to make it worthwhile. The bench is weak enough against RHP as it is that having the extra LH pinch hitter might be more useful then the 13th pitcher who only mops up, given how few mop up games we have.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's a fair point

and I actually forgot to include the reliever PAs, but I looked it up…

Dodger non-starting pitchers have batted 10 times in 30 games in May & June, so once every three games.

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I should add, 3 of those 10 PA were sacrifices

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

with Tron Tron and Belly

pitching multiple innings is that really something that should be factored in. I’d rather have them going for that 2nd inning then letting some of the other less quality pitchers get their hand on the ball.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can deal with that scenario

but I just hate having pitchers pinch-hitting.

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

We should just remake the bullpen

And force everyone to throw two innings if they’re capable of it.

by Tripon on Jun 2, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think all bullpens

Should work this way. I’m not sure why they don’t.

by Brendan Scolari on Jun 2, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

After 53 games the only active

Dodgers with a .500 slugS% are Blake and Pierre. I’d have lost the house on that one.

The highest active OPS belongs to Pierre at .933. I’d have lost the 2nd house on that one.

Russell Martin with a slug percent (.318) lower then Juan Pierre’s batting average (.382). I’d have lost my left testicle on that one.

Juan Pierre with highest active OPS+ at 147. I’d have lost my right testicle on that one.

Good thing I stopped betting on baseball.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 1:23 PM PDT reply actions  

bring back pinch hitting extraordinaire olmedo saenz

Dodgers - 2008 NL West Champions
Cardinals - 2008 NFC Champions

by wongy on Jun 2, 2009 1:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Matt Stairs should be a Dodger

David Delucci sure lost it quick. Probably my imagination but it seems like older players are losing it much faster post testing once they get injured.

If Casey Blake can maintain this type of production he is going to have an historic season for his age at his position for a non HOF player, non future HOF player, non admitted steroid user. Then again that is why they play 162 games and why it weighs heavily against the aged.
http://www.bb-ref.com/play-index/shareit/phfx

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 1:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Nice to see some Tim Wallach love on there :)

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is basically how my conversation with Jacob Burch started before Game 4 of the NLCS. It’s why he blames me for the loss. :)

by Eric Stephen on Jun 3, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don;t mind

the Dodgers using Milton as a pinch hitter. I do mind him swinging at the first pitch for an easy out. At least make the other pitcher throw 3 pitches minimum.

by robotmadeofnails on Jun 2, 2009 2:09 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree with this strategy. Going forward, all pitchers hitting in non-sacrifice situations should at the very least take two strikes, and in some cases, take three. :)

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've actually advocated something like this before

particularly with really crappy hitting pitchers in a situation where a bunt does no good yet there could be a GIDP. I’ve argued to simply stand up there and put the “take” sign on for every pitch.

by Michael White on Jun 2, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

They should even crowd the plate, assuming the bat with the same side as they pitch :)

by Eric Stephen on Jun 2, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think they should hunch over the plate with their non pitching arm facing the pitcher.

Better yet put this guy on the roster.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fits in nicely

with the girl throwing out the first pitch. Bet they couldn’t throw Shannon three strikes.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 2:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Now we're talking

during the pennant race when rosters expand, the Dodgers should offere a contract to someone 4 foot 10 or shorter who could be a pinch-“taking every single pitch” specialist.

by Michael White on Jun 2, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

We could simply activate Kim Ng

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Jun 2, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like how the ESPN guy referenced your article

But then he then went on to wonder why we don’t have any “long man” relievers where this has pretty much been Weaver’s entire role since he left the rotation and is a specialist position we can have exactly because we have the 13 pitcher roster. The ESPN guy should have just provided the link and quite while he was ahead, maybe he should get your number.

I don’t have any problem with having your best hitting pitchers hit instead of a mediocre bench warmer. Ideally you would have some better hitting pitchers than we have this year as we have in the past, but there isn’t any reason why a pitcher roster spot shouldn’t be used for offense.

I think this luxury was really just luck since our defensive specialist suddenly decided he could hit. Whatever Torre is doing, he’s doing something right, because the team ERA is ridiculously low compared to the expectations coming into the season and I think that’s beyond accepting a position with a NL West club. I think limiting our pitchers to what they can handle and not stretching them out has been a big part of the success.

by Dodger Dude on Jun 2, 2009 3:38 PM PDT reply actions  

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Pos No Player 2012 Salary
C 17 Ellis $490,000
1B 7 Loney $6,375,000
2B 14 Ellis $2,500,000
3B 5 Uribe $8,000,000
SS 9 Gordon $485,000
LF 23 Abreu $401,311
CF 27 Kemp $10,000,000
RF 16 Ethier $10,950,000

OF 10 Gwynn $850,000
IF 12 Sellers $481,000
OF/1B 33 Van Slyke $388,197
2B/3B 3 Kennedy $800,000
C 18 Treanor $850,000

SP 22 Kershaw $6,000,000
SP 58 Billingsley $9,000,000
SP 29 Lilly $12,000,000
SP 44
Harang $3,000,000
SP 35 Capuano $3,000,000

CL 74
Jansen $491,000
RHP 52 Lindblom $483,000
RHP 51 Belisario $414,426
RHP 54 Guerra $488,000
RHP 28
Wright $900,000
LHP 57 Elbert $488,500
RHP 60 Coffey $1,000,000

DL 55 Guerrier $4,750,000
DL 6 Hairston $2,250,000
DL 21 Rivera $4,000,000
60DL 36 Hawksworth $495,000
60DL 41 De La Rosa $485,000

AAA 13 DeJesus $86,648
AA 50 Eovaldi $7,885
AAA 56 Antonini $7,869



Manny $8,087,432 deferred


Andruw $3,375,000 deferred


Pierre $3,050,000 deferred
Furcal $3,000,000 deferred
Kuroda $2,000,000 deferred
Garland $1,500,000 option buyout
Blake $1,250,000 option buyout
DFA 66 MacDougal $650,000

Totals
$114,830,268

For more detailed information, click here.

Current 40-man roster count: 42
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Eric___ned___reporters_2011_trade_deadline_small Eric Stephen

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