The O'Malley Suite is not Complete without Tommy Lasorda
by MammothDodger on Jan 12, 2010 11:40 PM PST
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Tommy Lasorda, at the mere mention of his name, everyone knows you are talking about a true blue Dodger, his six plus decades with the boys in blue is the longest of any person. Even longer than TBLAs Hall of Fame’s name sake Vin Scully. He and Scully are the only persons that have been with the LA Dodger organization as for every year they have been out west.
Released as a player in 1960, he went to work as a scout. After 4 years he became the manager in the Dodger system at Pocatello in 1965. He moved up the minor league system over the next 7 years, Ogden then Spokane and finally Albuquerque. He won championships all along the way. In 1973 he moved up to the big league club as 3rd base coach. Studying under the Great Walter Alston, he learned his craft well and in 1976 with four games left in the season he took over as Alston retired.
Over the next 21 seasons he compiled a .526 winning percentage, 1599 wins, four pennants and 2 World Series Championships. Tommy was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame as a manager in 1997, his first year eligible. Based solely on his long and successful tenure Tommy belongs in the O’Malley Suite, but Tommy was so much more than the sum of his statistical achievements.
Many will argue that Tommy was not much of a "numbers" guy, he was not a statistician. I would reply to them that he knows the game and knows the situation at hand and made the right call more often then not. He managed by motivation. It worked for him and the Dodgers.
He also was an unabashed rah-rah. Who can forget Tommy running onto the field after a big win, his arms raised to the sky, the height of his jumps measured in millimeters, in fact there would be some question if you could slide a sheet of paper between the soles of his shoes and the ground. Tommy bleeds Dodger Blue and prays to the Great Dodger in the Sky, for those too young to remember his tenure (which means you have not enjoyed a Dodger Championship) let me assure you that they were great years in Dodger history.
Does Tommy belong in over Alston, I do not think so. I believe they both deserve plaques in the O'Malley suite. It is hard to measure the success of a manager in any way except Wins and Championships and on both of these yard sticks both Walter and Tommy measure up quite well.
He also was always good for a quote (parental guidance is suggested)
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1985 World Series
I was watching the ESPN program “5 reason you can’t blame” this weekend (a show I really enjoy BTW) and the episode laid down 5 reasons you couldn’t blame the 1985 Wolrd Series on umpire Don Denkinger. Reason number 4 was Tommy Lasorda and Tom Niedenfuer. The logic was basically that the Dodgers were the better team and should have been in the World Series over St. Louis anyway, and that Lasorda royally screwed up by letting Tom Niedenfuer blow game 5 and game 6.
Suffice it to say, this was well before my time (I hadn’t even celebrated my second birthday yet) so I really can’t comment to how much blame Lasorda really should shoulder here, but it does play into one of your critiques of Lasorda. Additionally, my father mentioned to me at one point that I would have hated Tommy Lasorda as manager (I assume that means if Lasorda was manager now instead of Torre.) I think we should consider if Lasorda was a good manager as opposed to being a really good “mascot” for the team.
IIRC Bill James wrote about Game 6 in 1985, and came to the conclusion that pitching to Clark was the right move. I can’t find the article online though. Jon Weisman’s book mentions it as well. Some notes though.
- Score was 5-4 Dodgers
- 2 outs, top 9th, runners on 2nd & 3rd
- Clark up, Van Slyke on deck
- Niedenfuer pitching (who at that point had thrown 49 pitches and faced 10 batters; BB-Reference doesn’t have full pitch data for 1985, but Niedenfuer did face 10+ batters 12 times that season)
- Clark vs RHP – .261/.355/.459
- Van Slyke vs RHP – .281/.360/.481
The move was pretty much universally panned at the time, but I think it was a close call. Basically you are choosing between two equal batters vs. RHP, so would you rather face one with 2 runners on, or one with the bases loaded?
by Eric Stephen on Jan 13, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions
James wrote his argument backing Lasorda’s decision in The Bill James Baseball Abstract 1986, the first James’ publication I ever bought or read, and I was just looking for a book with stats on all the players. Needless to say, it was an eye-opener.
Eric Enders must have agreed with Tommy also, because he is vociferously against an IBB to load the bases.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
James' conclusion
So if you walk Clark:
1) You’re bringing a better hitter to the place facing a right-hander,
2) You’re allowing the Cardinals to tie the game with a walk,
3) You’re using up the margin of error for the pitcher, and
4) You’re making an extra-base hit as damaging as a home run.
Against this you have one advantage – the fact that the veteran Clark has a well-deserved reputation as a clutch terror, while the young Van Slyke does not.
That’s a lunatic trade.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions
That book is still in my office!
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
Also, Niedenfuer had struck out Clark in the 7th inning.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
1985
How painful that was, I went to game 2 (won the tickets from KMET the morning of the game.
Yes Neidenfuer blew game 5, giving up a homer the the Wizard, but I do not see how Tommy can be blamed for that, he was the closer and Ozzie had never homered from the left side IN HIS CAREER. But the game is baseball and shit happens.
As for game 6 the first managerial decision was if they should walk Ozzie with 1 out and Willie Mcgee on second, Ozzie had homered and tripled in his last 2 at bats, or pitch to him. I guess a second choice would have been to go to Ken Howell. The decision was to walk him and face Herr, who grounded out. Now with 2 outs the choice was to either walk Jack Clark with first base open and then pitch to Van Slyke. This was a tough call Neidenfuer had struck out Clark earlier in the game but Van Slyke was having a miserable series, I can see how people could fault tommy for not walking Clark but the decision was made and we who watched or were there live with the pain to this day. Do I wish there was a different outcome, of course. Can Tommy be blamed, yes. Does it mean he should not take his rightful place in the O’Malley suite, No F..n way.
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
I appreciate the feedback. As I said, I wasn’t there and I certainly appreciate how these things turn into a “hindsight is 20/20” type incident. Considering what you and Eric have recalled, it seems to me the decision was basically a coin flip.
Of course I’m not suggesting this one incident should cost Lasorda a spot in the Dodgers HOF. My question is more general. Was he a good manager?
It’s an honest question. Plenty of people think Torre is a crap manager and won in New York because of all the talent on his teams.
by Michael White on Jan 13, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
Even though it was a reply to your post, I did not mean to imply that you thought he did not belong, I am just standing up for my guy for all who will come along and read this post.
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
MLB Network showed game 5 recently, and I forgot about this (I was 9 years old, and watched the end of the game at my grandma’s house after school) but NBC showed the graphic that Ozzie Smith had 0 HR in three thousand so-and-so at-bats…the ultimate jinx graphic :)
Kind of like the 1988 WS Game 1 during Canseco’s AB “Has never hit a grand slam in his career”
by Eric Stephen on Jan 13, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions
Masochist
The Ozzie Smith home run bothered me much more then the Clark home run.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Same for me
But I do not see how it would have been Tommy’s fault. I blame Neidenfuer.
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
the game is baseball and shit happens.
Truer words have never been written.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions
Man, that is some weak-assed, bullshit reason. Lasorda’s mistake was putting so many innings on Niedenfuer’s arm during the season that he was probably gassed in the NLCS – 106 1/3 IP in the regular season following a season limited to 47 1/3 IP due to injuries.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
This is an arguement that can be had over Tommy's entire managerial Career
and one that should be done in the context of if he belongs in the O’Malley Suite. He had his pitchers throw ALOT. I am not sure that Niedenfuer was “gassed” but 106 innings by a hard throwing reliever seems to be a pretty high number. Tommy was never a fan of pitch count obviously, but it is certainly open to argument whether he used up to many young arms or if he got what he could from them and moved on.
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
Indeed
I almost concluded the last comment with something about the era being different. From a pure retrospective position, Tommy’s pitcher management is certainly an interesting discussion – wasn’t he considered a rubber-arm kind of guy himself? – but he is also a product of his era. A lot of pitchers throughout baseball racked up a lot of pitches during the years Tommy managed, particularly the 70s and 80s.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
supposed to be a reply to Dave's "shit happens" reply
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
Man, that’s some good shit when it happens to the other guys!
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Mwhite
Tommy Lasorda was so big he should get his own suite.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Mammoth
we will pop this on the front page after the Wills article runs for a while. You guys cut it close together but he beat you by three hours. I’m curious which baseball card Eric will employ for this one. The fat mascot or the young impassioned 77 leader.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Sadly I will have to wait until tonight (baseball cards are at home), but I think the 1978 Topps “as player / as manager” card will suffice!
by Eric Stephen on Jan 13, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
thanks Phil
I had to write last night or it would have been pushing the deadline as a whole bunch of work and a little bit of fun are in store over the couple of weeks.
By the way for those skiers/boarders out there Mammoth Mtn got 18+ inches of snow last night and the sun is out now with a beautiful clear blue sky, so if I do not post this afternoon you can guess where I am, don’t tell my boss ;-)
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
Okay, now I'm jealous
I figured your nickname was because you were a huge Dodger fan not because you lived in Mammoth. I miss skiing.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
by Phil Gurnee on Jan 13, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
my nickname is actually for both of those reasons
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
TBLA ski trip!
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
This is very nicely done.
I think the question is going to come down to mwhite’s vs. Phil’s.
Was he a good manager? I don’t know. I think he certainly was flawed.
But Phil’s comment — he’s so big he should get his own suite — of course could be meant either literally or figuratively. It is impossible to imagine the Dodgers without Tom Lasorda, and to that extent, there’s no point in even trying to judge what kind of manager he is. What would be served by leaving him out?
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
Flawed certainly, the rah rah stuff wore thin over time.
I do have trouble using current methods to impune past choices though. I think at times those of us who use some of the “newer” ways to evaluate players and managers forget that before these new metrics came about most GMs and field Managers came to roughly the same conclusions through call it intuition, call it instinct, call it baseball smarts. Situations come up in every season every game every inning every batter where the Manager must make a decision he uses his brain to try and process the information available to him and make a choice, just because he does not consult a large notebook full of stats does not make the process any less valid.
by MammothDodger on Jan 13, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
This is what I tried to explore in my Wills piece.
We might only now have a good handle on what makes an offense click — on-base and slugging — but the thing is, runs might get more or less scarce in different eras but what makes a run has never changed. Some managers and players had a feel for that instinctively, and some didn’t. In that sense, I don’t have any problem reaching back into history and seeing which managers or players employed good strategies before Bill James put all of this down into words.
Which is not to say that a stats argument is the only argument, especially for this exercise, which I think has a clear mission. But if one is going to employ stats, I think it’s fair to use the same approach regardless of era.
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on Jan 13, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
As someone who witnessed the transition from the stoic Alston to the over the top hyperbole of Lasorda it was welcomed with both arms at the time. Only later did the gig start to grow stale.
If he had not been successful he would be an afterthought but he took the team to three world series in six years and could easily have won three World Championships with those teams but settled for one, and then won a very improbable one in 88. That record along with his incredible link to Dodger Blue as the Dodger Ambassador makes him a slam dunk in my opinion.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
I did know many baseball
fans who disliked the Dodgers because of Lasorda. His bleed blue put them off. Plus the fact he’s not really a nice man outside of his Dodger Blue persona. But none of that should matter in the context of this discussion.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Totally agree with both the 10:16 and 10:18 comments.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
by David Young on Jan 13, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions
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