More Views on Chad Billingsley and Dodger Pitching
When Chad Billingsley was pulled from the game yesterday having thrown 90 pitches to get through 5 1/3 innings allowing only 3 hits - yes, and 4 walks - while striking out 7, and with runners on second and third after well-struck double by Stephen Drew (a well-known Bills basher, now hitting .415 / .467 / .634 / 1.101 against him in 45 PAs, which is also the most anyone has faced Chad), the comments section of this blog were in a near-unanimous howl about Joe Torre's overly quick hook.
This was also the major theme of Eric's recap of the game, in which he left no doubt about his opinion:
If there was ever a time to let Billingsley work out of a tough spot -- three run lead, well rested arm, an extra day of rest pending -- this was it. Part of Billingsley pitching into the seventh is his manager giving him a chance.
Torre has stated on several occasions that he has confidence in Billingsley. It would be nice if he backs up those words with actions.
Last night I was with the crowd on this, and I'm still not convinced that pulling Billingsley in that situation in early May and turning the game over to the bullpen for 3 2/3 innings was the right move, but I am willing to concede that there could be other considerations as well.
Over at Dodger Thoughts, Jon Weisman weighed in with a well-thought out opinion where he termed Torre's decision as "one of [his] least inspiring", but offered one reason to get behind the decision:
If Torre made the decision to pull Billingsley in order to protect his arm for the long haul – similar to his choice to give Billingsley and other Dodger starters an extra day of rest this week by starting Ramon Ortiz on Friday – I might be able to get behind it. Torre was almost relentless in his use of Billingsley in the first half of last season, when the righthander threw at least 105 pitches in 12 consecutive games and 17 out of 19, racking up the most pitches thrown in all of baseball for the first half of '09.
Reports were that Billingsley showed visible signs of not wanting to come out of the game, believing that he should continue, and perhaps Torre - the purported master of personnel handling - explained the situation to Chad after the game in a way that allowed him to demonstrate confidence in Billingsley for the long haul. In any case, I can agree that coming up with ways not to overwork the young starters could be fruitful for setting up Kershaw and Billingsley to be effective frontline starters for the pennant drive and the post-season.
If a team follows a strict rotation and no one misses a turn, two starters make 33 starts and the rest make 32. Averaging six to seven innings a start over 33 starts translates to a season of 198 to 210 innings pitched. That range seems like a reasonable workload for Kershaw and especially Billingsley at this stage of their careers.
In a slightly related story, Jay Jaffe has a new article on Baseball Propectus where he examines the Dodger pitching staff and finds "Night of The Living Dodgers". The first few paragraphs are visible to non-subscribers. Here are a couple of the conclusions he comes to:
Even with back-to-back wins on Sunday and Monday, the two-time defending NL West champions find themselves closer to the division's basement than its penthouse, sitting two games under .500 and 4 ½ games behind the upstart Padres. The Dodgers aren't there because of their offense, which is averaging 5.1 runs per game despite missing Manny Ramirez for nearly half of the young season. They're underwater because of their pitching, as poor offseason planning has caught up to them amid injuries and lackluster performances.
One could argue that the retreads have simply bought time for pitchers more essential to the team's blueprint to get right, either physically or with respect to the strike zone, but it's quite apparent that the team is at least one solid starter away from a rotation befitting a contender, and by struggling to this point they've failed to take advantage of the fact that both the Rockies and the Diamondbacks are down multiple starters as well. For want of a League Average Innings Muncher, the division was lost? That may be the epitaph of the 2010 Dodgers' season.
Amid all of this worry about the starting pitching, Jaffe does pull out this suprising finding:
As shaky as the Dodgers rotation has been, the starters have actually thrown a larger share of the team's innings than all but two other NL clubs, the Pirates and Mets
I imagine, or I at least hope, that the Dodgers overall pitching staff is better than the early numbers indicate and that improvement is on the way, or is in fact already happening. Three runs allowed in Arizona isn't a bad result. Shutting out the Rockies is good. Outside of Haeger's horrific start Saturday and Kuroda scuffling a bit but still getting the game into the sixth, the Dodgers have had a five-game stretch - once through the rotation - of some pretty decent pitching. Here's hoping it's the start of a season-long renaissance.
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I'm in the Orange County Jury waiting room...
waiting to see if they will select me for duty. However, so far they have called:
Johnnie Baker (not sure if it’s Dusty)
Jose Mota (or was it one of his brothers?)
Ross Geller (but not Chandler Bing)
Gary Cooper (perhaps not thinking he’s the luckiest man on the face of the earth)
Gordon Brown (who apparently became a US Citizen after Labour’s poor showing in the UK election)
On a similar note
will Dave Cameron continue his USS Mariner and Fangraphs duties if he’s busy in the UK?
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
There was that recent article
where Cameron ranked the UK as the 6th best country in the world. Harry Potter is nearing his prime evidently.
by Xeifrank on May 11, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
You will know you are being punked when
they call Eric Stephen and Jon Weisman.
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
They won’t get to Eric’s name until he hears “will the defendant please rise?”.
by KellyStephen on May 11, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Great post
lots of good catches from the panoply of Dodger writers. This is blogging at its best— pulling together lots of opinions and forming into a cohesive whole. The amount of amazing stuff the “three headed monster” of TBLA puts out weekly is staggering.
I’m not flipping shit (tm kensai) over Lindblom anymore. How can he give up double digit hits every game?!
Because his stuff is average all around as a starter. Nothing remotely approaching plus range when he starting.
by UCLADodger32 on May 11, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey Ned, what do you think about Lindblom’s performance this year?
Ned: It’s below average. The strikeouts are below average, the hits given up are below average. Is it because he didn’t break camp with us? I can’t tell you. But it’s below average.
Because his stuff takes a downturn as a reliever and he throws nothing but strikes usually which is
fucking disaster at that joke of a park.
by Chad Moriyama on May 11, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, as a starter.
Just made a fanpost about it.
by Chad Moriyama on May 11, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said in the last thread
We need to win games here. We won the game. I’m not going to bitch about a win.
by Mike Dennis on May 11, 2010 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Right. You manage to win games. If you have walked four batters and made 90 pitches, many of them in high stress situations, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to get pulled. We have our bullpen back at full strength now – why not show some confidence in them.
vr, Xei
Because the bullpen (at least the good members) is more likely to be needed tonight
when the Dodgers start a guy with 2 career starts.
I see several things to bitch about in last night’s win. I don’t agree with the decision to pull Billingsley,and I don’t agree with the decision to pitch Troncoso when the WE is basically 100%. I also don’t agree with the fact that Torre had Broxton warm up (again) after Tron got into some trouble.
by Michael White on May 11, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
But it was either Broxton, Sherrill or Troncoso
The problem when you have someone like Ely going for you in a game, is that you have to be prepared to pull him out at any time. Thus, Monk, Weaver (Ortiz who I guess is starting on Friday) were probably being saved for that game.
Now, he could have gone to Sherrill but maybe he takes longer to warm up and Troncoso gets ready faster.
Plus once Broxton warmed up, I don’t think the extra warm up matters.
I won’t argue that you shouldn’t use your better pitchers in low leverage situations, but occasionally it’s going to happen. Troncoso threw 13 pitches. He should be fine for another inning tonight if need be. The only pitcher that will likely be unavailable (all this while removing Billingsley after 90 pitches) is Belisario, who threw a whopping 33 pitches. Guo may be unavailable, or a last resort case due to his arm tenderness. Managers, including Joe Torre make MUCH worse decisions than the one last night where Billingsley was pulled. We won the game. I didn’t even flinch when the move was made.
vr, Xei
+1
Such is the desire to see Billingsley succeed that even when the plan WORKS it gets panned. He gave up a leadoff walk in the 6th, and Torre has shown little patience with anyone who does that late in a tight ballgame. OF COURSE we want to see Billingsley fight any “demons”, real or perceived. But the most important thing is preserving the win, and Torre did just that.
Believe me- I am no Torre apologist, but it seems that every bullpen move he’s made this year has received more than its fair share of howls- including, on one occasion, pinch hitting for Broxton in the 9th inning of a game that he’d already blown the save for (which would’ve ensured that he wouldn’t be available for the next day- a game where he was ultimately needed, FYI). The bottom line is that less leadoff walks and better pitching from the bullpen (which we seem to be getting now, perhaps even from Sherrill), and we’ll have less discussion on what moves Torre does and doesn’t make. All things considered, though, I think he’s done a surprisingly good job, given what he’s had to work with this year.
Believe me- I am no Torre apologist, but it seems that every bullpen move he’s made this year has received more than its fair share of howls
Um, because the bullpen has blown.
by Michael White on May 11, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
D-Backs Lineup
Johnson 2B
C. Jackson LF
Upton RF
LaRoche 1B
Reynolds 3B
Drew SS
Young CF
Snyder C
Haren P
You do wonder if AZ doesn't start playing better
If the team will change course re their homegrown talent.
it seems like theyve been doing ok. it might have been managements bad idea to sign them to long term deals tho..
by hee came hee seop'd he choi'd on May 11, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Ely will need to throw a lot more cutters tonight against this lineup. I don’t expect anything close to last week’s performance, but a “quality start” by the loosest standard will work.
Actually
the 6 IP, 3 ER start is not the most common Quality Start. Generally, quality starts are much better than that.
I think the Dodgers have something like 15 QS this year
So if Ely did that, he might just guarantee a spot for at least a month.
But the Phillies are the NL Pennant winners already?
ToddZolecki
Lidge threw. He said it didn’t feel like he wanted it to feel. He sounded very frustrated.
Against Haren
We really need to be patient tonight. Looking at the Dbacks bullpen ERA’s is like reading the Boeing product lineup. We need to get in that ASAP because we know Haren is going to be tough.
by Mike Dennis on May 11, 2010 3:05 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Nice read....
I feel like the pitching is starting to come around. We will need to find the pitching depth from our ranks. I don’t know of a starting pitcher on the market. If there is one, the will want too much in return. They have to take Harem deep in the count today. Wear him out. It’s great to see Martin come around. With continued production from Dre, Road Loney, and the rest of the troops we should be ok.
by Skunkburner on May 11, 2010 3:25 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Dodgers lineup
per Jon Weisman:
Martin C
Kemp CF
Ethier RF
Ramirez LF
Loney 1B
Blake 3B
Belliard 2B
Carroll SS
Ely P
Green was only here in case of an extra inning game or
some pinch-hit removal of Carroll late in the game.
So is the scheduled day off
The only one Martin is getting this week?
Maybe Martin will sit tomorrow
And so get two consecutive days off?
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Longest starting streaks of Martin's career
2006
21 straight gms (in 23 days)
2008
14 straight games
He also had 13-game streaks in each of 2006-2008
Current streak is 13 straight starts, including tonight, plus 16 starts in 18 days.
Mike Piazza
started 31 straight games in 1995.
He had three other streaks of 20 straight starts or more
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't realize
That among active pitchers, Jamie Moyer is the current career strike-out leader and that flame throwing Tim Wakefield is 4th.
It’s because their managers didn’t pull them with one out in the sixth. :)
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it more the act itself
Or the fact that because of people and places like TBLA and DT, obscure stats like pitching into the 7th inning are even talked about thus until he does it (which is not really his decision), it will get raised.
It's an act of faith
That’s all I want.
For instance, it’s not much of a big deal in the grand scheme that Vicente Padilla started opening day, other than the symbolic downer that comes with “Vicente Padilla, Opening Day Starter.”
If Torre wants to make sure he pulls a pitcher before something bad happens, do that with Ely, do that with Ortiz. Don’t do it with Billingsley or Kershaw.
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe in Joe’s mind something bad had already happened – or was in the process of happening. I would think if it had been Ortiz, Ely, Monasterios, Padilla or some other lesser pitcher in that situation, he would’ve done the same thing. In the end, the manager needs to do what he thinks will help his team win – within reason of course.
... For want of a League Average Innings Muncher, the division was lost? ...
This seems obvious now, as it did at the start of the season.
The team took a gamble on Padillia.
Padillia will not be successful in filling this need. No telling how he will hold up when he returns.
The Dodger plan for this year leaves little room for error.
The likes of Ely, McDonald and others of this ilk will not be considered MLB innings eaters at this stage of their young careers.
How many times will Ely make it around the league before they catch up to his stuff?
The Dodgers had the money available to secure other more expensive pitching options before the start of the season, they still do, only now it will cost more.
Not hearing too much from Mr. Mannion these days.
Both Mannion and Colletti require clearance from McCourt when spending signifigant sums of money.
Today the Dodgers rank near the top in hitting and near the bottom in pitching.
Who’da thunk it?
Right Mr. McCourt?
Errr … not positioning for a sale of the team are we?
If not, let’s get another MLB innings eater on board, please.
Don’t ask me who, I buy the tickets,
you get the talent to make it work.
Yeah but the same could be said last year
When they signed Wolf to a deal in January.
And after one game, they lost Kuroda, by June, Eric Milton started some games, by July, Jason Schmidt started some games.
Not saying its the right way but they are used to these kind of issues with the pitching staff.
And outside of Maddox, name the last pitcher they acquired during the season that made a difference.
Similar scenario last season ... but ...
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Wolf worked out
And Milton and Schmidt were #5 starters?
Now we face 80% of the season remaining with, who will be #4, the innings eater?
Without one, the bullpen may get mighty tired.
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
But Wolf could have bombed just as easily
He got hurt in 2007.
And the Dodgers pitched basically the entire season with no one pitcher (maybe Wolf) not having issues.
And this is not an unusual thing, its more common than what the Rockies had last year with their 5 starters tossing 140+ games started.
… name the last pitcher …
Right on, that’s why things are put in order before the season.
Unfortunately, the NRI casting call this spring,did not yield the results last year’s did.
Ortizi – :(
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
... Wolf could have bombed ...
Yes, and if he had, much more difficult to get to the post season, no?
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Last year at this time
the starters averaged 5.63 innings per start. This season the starters average 5.40.
The 5-man rotation on May 11, 2009 was:
Billingsley
Kershaw
Wolf
Stults
Weaver
Is that really all that different than the current situation?
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
My point is that
This was not a great free agent year for pitchers, again maybe they could have gone with someone like Joel Piniero but he doesn’t even have the resume of anyone who has been consistent and everyone else had some red flag.
Actually, I think a bigger issue was the pen, with only Troncoso being a decent middle relief guy, that really made April rough.
ok, you guys have done a good job of getting me to simmer down
rant/off
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Only the record
And if the Dodgers this year had played the NL West as much as they did last year, who knows, where they might be.
It Is Irrelevant If Ely Is "Considered" An MLB Innings-Muncher...
…as long as he can BE that. And maybe he can.
What is objectionable about Jaffe’s piece is how much it depends on what we think of as “Ned Colletti thinking.” Jaffe is saying “Show me the resume; I want a PROVEN guy.” It is to the Dodgers credit that they have not done that. They are experimenting with young guys who may be ABLE to do something, rather than just relying on experience and veteraness. This is something I want MORE of, not less.
by CanuckDodger on May 11, 2010 4:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Part of that is just the after effects
Of Jason Schmidt’s deal, there was just no way the Dodgers would spend the kind of money iwt would have taken plus take on the risk.
Also, their choices were probably Padilla and Garland (Garland when right does at least give you some innings) but never both of them.
i do think that the decisions to keep Montaserios and Ramon Ortiz (and Russ but hat was more due to Belisario and Kuo being out). did hamper the club in the beginning of the year.
what school is this and who are they scouting?
I met Pete Carroll at my highschool a couple years ago
by SeanMillerSavior on May 11, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I think they are doing some ESPN stuff
Head coaches are not allowed to visit any high schools during May.
Yep
Shooting commercials here at Long Beach State
by Julio Nievas on May 11, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Dodgers announce
That due to the velocity of sales of season tickets and mini-plans, they will not be selling any of the Yankee games as a single game ticket.
My price for those games just tripled.
velocity? Does that mean they’re selling a lot of ’em?
This is actually a great idea because even with this, there will be tons of Yankee fans at those 3 games. Are all 3 of them on national TV or just the last two?
The Dodger ticket warehouse is much like the I Love Lucy chocolate plant. Big conveyor belt that sometimes wreaks havoc.
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
That includes all the chocolate tickets that are presumably paid for by someone but then just fall off the treadmill into oblivion.
“Treadmill Into Oblivion” would be a good name for a gym.
by Eric Stephen on May 11, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The game on Sunday
does not have a scheduled start time as yet.
Right now each of the 4 Sunday games in June are labeled as TBD start times.
I am going to guess that the Dodgers playing in Fenway (Torre, Manny) will be too much for ESPN not to want to show.
Expect another World Series atmosphere during those games. I went to the Friday night one in 2004 and it was rowdy as all get out.
me too
it was a lot of fun. tons of Yankees fans, obviously but the place was rocking from before the first pitch.
Assuming you are a Los Angeles area Yankee fan, why break the bank buying tickets to the Dodgers/Yankees series?
Why not just pay normal ticket prices for the Yankees/Angels games which occurs every year?
by Michael White on May 11, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
who knows
maybe they go with their Dodger fan friends. Maybe they don’t like driving to Orange County. Maybe they aren’t actually huge Yankees fans but just like going to a big event and supporting their hometown team.
Just asked a ticket broker what he’d offer me for my four seats for Sunday’s Yankee game. Seats are in the Loge, down by the LF foul pole. Face value is $30. I was offered $200 for the four seats and the parking pass.
What do you guys think?
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
But avoid stubhub for now since you would have to list them at $55
each, just to make that much money and still charge extra for the parking
Just what will the market bear for these fine seats?
by 68elcamino427 on May 11, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
That is certainly a good question.
I don’t mind the guy making a profit off of me. He’s got a business and he’s got to eat. And I like having little hassle.
I do mind being taken advantage of. If the tickets end up being worth, say, $400 — and I realize that the seats kinda suck, so maybe they’re not worth that much — then I think 100% profit is taking advantage of me.
I wish I knew where the happy medium was. Make your money, but don’t make me a schmuck.
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
It depends on weekday/weekend
I went to see the Red Sox in Anaheim a couple of times when I rooted for them. On the weekend, it was a ton of fun, no problem getting in/out.
One time we went on a weekday. It took three hours to get there. When I rolled into the stadium, I was a burnt out shell of a man.
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Would Vin get the day off, or would he broadcast on radio?
The Ultimate Ned's Kind of Guy
by Humma Kavula on May 11, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Saturday's game
is a weird 4:10 p.m start in L.A.
Which would be a very rare prime time regular season FOX game. So, I would imagine that game will be heavily promoted in a few weeks.
Angels have a bunch of 4:05 start times for Wednesday games this year…very weird start time.
by KellyStephen on May 11, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Joe just wanted to make sure there was a win
Bills could have pitched through that inning, but Joe is a ubber conservative, IMO, so he was just guartenteeing the win. Next start, Joe will let him go farther.
Yeh
I also think Joe is thinking they are getting close to turning it andhe didn’t want to lose it.
We’ve seen consecutive quality starts from CK, Kuroda and Bills, and now that he traded Ely for Haeger, he’s thinking, this is the beginning of something good.
Game Preview is Up
http://www.truebluela.com/2010/5/11/1468221/three-start-night-elys-coming-again
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.

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