Time for a New Closer?
by bearface on Jun 28, 2010 5:01 AM PDT
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PrintUgh. That's pretty much all I have to say. With all of this talk about needing a staff Ace, we've just seen Vicente Padilla, Hiroki Kuroda, and Clayton Kershaw pretty much own the American League All Star team. As bad as the hitting has been, Rafael Furcal seems to be his old self. Manny is, well, being Manny (finally) and Andre Ethier and Matt Kemp are going to have to show up at some point, even if its because they're both worried about contracts. The bullpen, as shaky as it has been, seems to be shaping up. I'm as comfortable with Kuo, Bellisario, Weaver, and Troncoso as I would be with anybody.
But the big guy. Jonathan Broxton. He obviously cannot handle clutch situations. He has had enough chances to prove himself, and every time he needs to really, really come through he just blows up. IMO, that means it's time to add a new closer to our very long list of needs. I'm not even really sure who to go to.
Thoughts?
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I don't agree with this at all
How are you defining “every time he needs to really, really come through.”
You need to take a step back and realize last night doesn’t negate anything Broxton has done.
I'm glad you can keep your composure and be nice about it
I can’t stand something this idiotic being said.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
I suggest converting Vicente Padilla to a closer
And trading Broxton for Ian Snell.
Problem solved!
Also, how is the “every” time being defined here? Obviously Broxton’s save number is > 0, so I’m not sure how that works.
I hear it helps, when evaluating a baseball player’s performance, to actually pay some attention to the game for more than one inning. Of course, had one done that before making this post they would have seen that Broxton was one of the, if not the, most dominant closers in the game right now.
Broxton is probably the best closer in baseball
In an April game in Houston, or an August game at home against the Pirates. Then comes the Matt Stairs syndrome. The big situations make him seem so little.
The ONLY reason the Yankees have won 5 world series since 1996 is Mariano Rivera, who always comes through (save that 2001 Louis Gonzalez HR) in the biggest moments. Sure , the 30 hall of fame sluggers and aces have helped them get there, but it’s Mo that assures all of those victories.
Until Broxton can show me that he can come through in those bigger-than-life situations, I won’t have confidence in him.
Why are you using Mariano Rivera as the standard? That’s like saying if a baseball player isn’t as good as Babe Ruth or Ted WIlliams he doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame.
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions
OK
Name every closer in baseball you would rather have than Broxton
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Kuo can't pitch 2 days in a row
You certainly know that.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
yes. i know that.
i’m not a GM, i’m a fan. a fan who hasn’t seen the Dodgers win a world series since he was 5 and wants the Dodgers to figure their shit out. somehow.
If you admit you're just a fan who doesn't know what you're talking about
why waste our time with this fanposts? If you want to think through this stuff and discuss it, fine, but just throwing in the towel saying that you’re just a fan who has no ideas makes this post kind of meaningless.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
i do know what i'm talking about,
but i also work 60 hours a week and don’t have time to memorize every closer’s numbers.
Like I've Said
Broxton might be the best closer in baseball. In April, against Houston or in August against the Giants.
Or September
against everybody. In his two seasons as closer, with the Dodgers in a pennant race each year, here are his Septembers:
2009: 14 games, 13.2 IP, 7/8 saves, 1.98 ERA, 3 BB, 21 K (he gave up runs in one game)
2008: 12 games, 11.1 IP, 4/5 saves, 0.79 ERA, 6 BB, 13 K (he did give up 3 UER; his one blown save came after the Dodgers clinched the division)
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
You are basing this off of not even knowing all of the information
So you are saying through June 26th, Broxton hasn’t faced one worthy opponent? Seriously?
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
I dont understand how you can question him now
You didnt say anything when he tore through the Yankees Saturday, but go ape-shit when he didnt save a game that he had thrown 50 pitches going into the game on the week, and then threw 48 more.
I said it before and will say it again, this is on Torre. He was managing to beat the Yankees and not thinking about his players and what they had done in the past week.
Also, using Mo as a standard is like saying a guy isnt a power hitter unless he has Ryan Howard’s power
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Jun 28, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Cry me a river
We all have real jobs here – this is a hobby for us.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Sorry
that comes off harsher than intended. Suffice that the TBLA writers all work long and hard at their real jobs too.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
Kuo has an arm made of glass
thats not gonna happen.
by draft dodger on Jun 28, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
You seem to only define a big situation as one that he fails in
All those saves he has this year, if he didn’t save them, you’d be calling those games bigger than life situations. But since he was succesful, it was just another save for Broxton.
I also remember Rivera failing in a certain Red Sox series up 3-0. Closers blow games some times, it happens.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Broxton hasn't done that this year?
Or last? Or Broxton hasn’t done that succesfully?
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
To name one
Game 2 of the 2009 NLCS: down 1-0 in the series, Broxton protects a one-run lead by retiring Rollins, Victorino, and Utley in order
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Umm, true
Look, there is overwhelming evidence that Broxton is among the elite of the elite closers. You keep shifting the argument based on one frustrating game.
Go back to work.
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
So Game 2 he was aweseom
three days later Matt Stairs hit a home run to palm springs.
Saturday he was clutch against the Yankees, Sunday he was awful.
You can do that for every closer ever
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
or Saturday
Same team, tore through, what, 3 HoFs?
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Jun 28, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Not that this means anything
But Rivera did blow saves in Game 7 of the 2001 World Series and Games 4 and 5 of the 2004 ALCS.
fail
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
I don't even need to read what you've said before I call you an idiot
If you truly think the Dodgers need a new closer then you are simply an idiot.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Sorry for being so crass
Or just downright mean, but come on man, he’s been money all year until today, when he’s clearly been overused and tired. Last night was a combo fail of Torre and Broxton.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
I Agree 100%
He has been money all year until last nigh – aside from that little slip up against Pedroria two weeks ago. Just like last year he was money for all of 2008 until Matt Stairs came to the plate or he was money throughout all of 2009 until Jimmy Rollins stepped up.
Maybe I just expect more out of the Dodgers than some of you.
You do expect more
Your expectations are perfection which is completely unreasonable. Even your boyfriend Rivera who is the gold standard for closers has blown high profile-high leverage saves.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
My expectations are that if you are going to call somebody
“the best” or “one of the best” than you expect that they will come through when up by four in the bottom of the ninth at home!
Against any other team he would have been fine, but the Yankees come to town. It’s a playoff atmosphere, lots of press, lots of pressure and he just completely tanks.
and BTW, my hatred of the Yankees goes far beyond my hatred of the Giants, or the Celtics. Mo is by far the best closer this game has ever seen. Take Jeter off of the Yankees since 1996, they could still have 5 rings. Take Mo away they don’t have any.
Most of us don't live in New York
And don’t view it as the center of the universe. These games were by no stretch a playoff like atmosphere (I was there on Friday) and there was nothing more at stake then the games Eric highlights above that Broxton has peformed in. Broxton melted down, but did so for the first time this year. It has nothing to do with pressure since I sincerely doubt the Dodgers give a shit about the Yankees and their egocentric fans. It has to do with Broxton getting lit up by the best offensive team in baseball.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't view New York as the center of the universe.
I just really, really, really hate driving. Outside of my wife, I find Yankee fans to be the worst, most obnoxious fans in sports.
How can you say that this wasn’t a playoff atmosphere? I watched every game, i had probably 30 friends posting facebook pictures of the stadium, texting with me etc. over the weekend. i know three new yorkers that flew out there for the game.
It was the loudest I’ve ever heard Dodger Stadium in a non-playoff game. Its the Yankees – it is a playoff atmosphere no matter where they play. You can’t hate the team more than I do, but it’s the truth.
Because “it’s the Yankees” means nothing to most of us. I can say it because I was there. But hey, you know 3 people who flew out so I guess that’s more meaningful.
I care nothing for that team. I don’t hate them, I don’t like them, I nothing them. They are just another baseball team, one that happens to hit baseballs very well.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
who are you trying to convince?
average attendance at dodger games this year: 44,000
average attendance this weekend against the yankees: 56,000
2/3 of the games were on National TV. As somebody who has lived outside of LA for ten years, I can tell you that that NEVER happens. That’s why I subscribe to the MLB TV package.
Yes, the Yankees draw well on a weekend. So would the Red Sox, Cubs, Giants, Angels, etc.
When we hosted TBLA night against the Pirates, there was 40,000 tickets sold for that game because it was a Sat. night game.
You guys talk to me like I'm not a Dodgers fan.
I haven’t lived in LA in ten years and I’ve been to Dodger Stadium probably 20 times in that period. I know. I get it. I defend LA, LA fans, and the Dodgers more than all of you combined.
The numbers don’t lie though. three straight sell outs, when people had to pay double what they would normally pay or buy up a multi game package just to go.
Against the defending World Chumps, who happen to have played the Dodgers in 11 world series.
This was a playoff atmosphere. They gave out f*ing hand towels!
As stupid as this conversation is getting, I love that you feel comfortable telling me what it felt like there. I mean, I was there, you watched it on TV. Shouldn’t this be a no-brainer?
And its all really beside the point. Say it was a playoff atmosphere. Surely those games in September and October that were either in the playoffs or during the stretch run were also a playoff atmosphere. Eric has shown that Broxton’s numbers in those situations are legit.
by Michael White on Jun 28, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry - it happened one other time.
When the Dodgers played the Red Sox and Manny Ramirez made his return to Boston. It’s a totally common occurrence.
Last season
Dodgers on Fox Saturday / ESPN Sunday:
May 30-31 at Wrigley Field
June 6-7 vs Phillies
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You do realize the best closer in baseball history, Rivera, isn't perfect
He does blow a handful of saves every year.
Broxton has put up the best stats in baseball for any closer this year, and over the last 2 years has been the best all-around closer.
Shit happens. There’s a reason no one has come close to Gagne’s save streak in the last half decade, because no one is perfect for long.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Perfection?
Is that what you expect?
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
I just find it ironic that you're asking for a new closer based on a non-save situation.
Broxton didn’t need to be in the game at all. Big moment? Only in the sense it was against the Yankees and Torre clearly thought getting a series win against his old bosses was important enough to treat Broxton like crap.
Bearface - this might simply be the worst fan post we have had
by meercatjohn on Jun 28, 2010 9:57 AM PDT reply actions 8 recs
No
because Billy Wagner did the same thing and it did not change the fact that Billy Wagner was one of the best closers in the 21st century. You don’t replace closers because they may not succeed 100% of the time in the playoffs. Mariano is unique in the history of baseball, no one should be held up to what he has accomplished in the post season.
I may want to trade Broxton at the end of this year but it won’t be because I don’t have faith in him as a closer, I would rather get a shitload of bounty for him when his value is at it’s highest, and let someone else try the closer role.
by meercatjohn on Jun 28, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
How about we trade
Broxton for Matt Capps. He has never failed in the playoffs. Sound like a good plan?
We've bashed people who bash Broxton all year
Like the incredibly smart people who call Dodgers Live and say how Broxton isn’t good enough and we need a new closer, etc…
Most, if not all, of the people in here agree that Broxton IS our guy.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Rec'd, for two reasons
1) It is true
2) It was so true, you used “worst” :)
by Eric Stephen on Jun 28, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Eric - Feel free to delete this.
You guys have fun continually being let down by Broxton, and I’m going to act like every other sports fan of a MAJOR FRANCHISE and expect that he doesn’t fold under pressure.
Broxton has let me down
exactly three times in three years. I can live with that, if you want perfection, that is your prerogative.
by meercatjohn on Jun 28, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't want perfection
I want my team in the World Series. I don’t see that happening with Broxton as our closer.
Derek Fisher might be a less than average three point shooter in the regular season, but in big moments he changes gears. I want that out of Broxton. If that makes me a bad sports fan, then I am a bad sports fan.
Not a bad sports fan
but maybe unrealistic given who our owner and GM are. Why is Broxton the only one being singled out in this scenario? The whole team failed in the NLCS, not just big John. Keshaw, Billingsely, Kuroda, the offense, the complete bullpen. It was a team failure last year, not just one guy. If Padilla doesn’t go voodoo on us we would have been swept.
by meercatjohn on Jun 28, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Derek Fisher might be a less than average three point shooter in the regular season, but in big moments he changes gears. I want that out of Broxton.
No matter how many times you say it, Sunday night was not a “big moment.”
IT WASNT A BIG MOMENT
the only people it was a big moment for were Joe Torre, Mariano Duncan, Larry Bowa… and you
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Jun 28, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
So who is better
who would you trade for? We can then proceed to find the 3 times in the last 3 years they blew saves and use the same arguments you have and conclude that they suck.
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
How about Billingsley, does his face get too red and he can't handle the pressure
Except for the dominating game against the Cubs in the 2008 NLDS?
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
it is easily that one by LongBeachDodger (i think) when he was going off last season about the dodgers “not wanting it more” and that they were losing cause other teams just were able to take “it” from the Dodgers
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
by BoulderDodger on Jun 29, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
broxton’s good. maybe 2nd or 3rd best in the league (behind rivera for sure). he’s our horse. don’t blame him that his arm’s tired. that’s on joe. gotta know that arm is electric. i still think he’s gotta keep throwing sherril out there. he can’t possibly have this much fluctuation from year to year. i will say this -i read a fangraphs article saying broxton’s windup/arm angle puts him at sever risk for arm trouble. i hope not – he one of my fav guys on the team.
baseball is one of those sports where
if you arm is going to go its going to go Prior had perfect form and we saw what happen. K Rod makes me cringe everytime he thows but he is still throwing at a high level
Actually
there have been a ton of biomechanic studies on Prior’s mechanics since his tenth surgery. It is such a fast pace that you can’t really see it, but if you look closer you can see how he landed hard on his front heel then push over a stiff front leg. This made all that torque he had generated with his legs go directly to his throwing arm.
Really
The guy has a bad game and people want to get rid of him. How was this a high pressure situation. It wasnt and its not like he failed facing the heart of the lineup his struggles came at the start of the inning. The guy is going to have a bad night once in a while. Get over it this guy is a top shelve closer and if you watch others like the Rodney/Fuentes you would know how lucky dodgers are.
I think "people" is being generous
this is just one person’s rant, not plural.
by meercatjohn on Jun 28, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
to tell u the truth
this is all getting blown out of proportion. Brox is a top notch closer and one game doesnt change that. Plus with that lead he should not have been throwing. Torre obviously does not trust anyone except for brox, Kuo and now Belisario. Maybe if he hadnt run Wade or Troncoso into the ground the bullpen may have the resemblance of a dominant one
bearface = Tom Cruise
Consider this you jumping on Oprah’s couch. You may very well be a half-decent guy, and half-decent at whatever it is you do, but for me, you’ll always be that crazy guy who called for Broxton’s head because he wasn’t perfect.
Jump away.
by GScott1 on Jun 28, 2010 2:56 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
I like Tom Cruise
War of the Worlds, Mission Impossible, Tropic Thunder, all great roles I’ve liked him in :)
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
What this has to do with anything...I really have not a clue.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Doesn't make the guy less crazy
Rudimentary creatures of flesh and blood, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Lol, I know
I just wanted to point out, for no real reason, that I like a few Tom Cruise movies. You know, just in case anyone here wanted to know just a little more about me :D
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Torre is overusing Broxton big time
Broxton isnt gonna have his same stuff when hes being used constantly for non-save situations.
Broxton
I bet Joe uses him tonight so he can get that “mental burden” off.
No bearface Noooooo!
you’re an awesome poster here at TBLA and i realize everyone is entitled to their own opinion but i have to strongly disagree. I’d write the reasons why, but I would be beating a dead horse
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
And earned you
a scolding from one of the editors in the main thread at the time! Nicely done, I guess.
The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.
In his other thread
I couldn’t not say how I felt about his unbelievable opinions. Just wow.
"You're the only woman to ever love me." "I never loved you." "I meant physically!"
Great fan post - all you people are idiots
Everyone knows that clutch closers like Mariano Rivera either pitch or warm up in all 162 games each season. Even with a ten run lead! You don’t want to trust a mere ten run lead to your setup guy. Appearing in four games in five days and warming up in the one game you don’t appear in is kid’s stuff. A real closer throws just as many pitches in a five-day span as the guys in your starting rotation. A real closer wouldn’t be sitting out the first two games of the Giant series.
BTW…the brilliant Garret Anderson seems to be struggling a little bit again. It’s time for Ned Colletti to call Xavier Paul on the phone again and tell him how to act like a major leaguer. Whenever Colletti does this, it increases his credibility with the veteran gamers around MLB, making them want to sign with the Dodgers after getting DFA’d by their teams. My preferred target to replace Matt Kemp in CF is Randy Winn. He has a professional haircut and I bet if Joe saw him play, he would say that Winn “really seems to know what he’s doing out there,” just like Joe used to say about Mark Sweeney, the Dodger pinch hitter extraordinaire who was the MVP of the 2008 team. I bet if Honeycutt taught Sweeney how to pitch, he could come out of retirement and be our next closer. Make it happen Ned!!!
by The Dude Abides on Jun 29, 2010 4:43 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Don't jump off the bandwagon because your seat will get taken.
One bad game, what a great learning experience for Broxton. He’ll be clutch down the road.
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