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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

25 for 25: Dodgers

I am actually a St. Louis Cardinals fan, but over the past few months I've been working on a roster for each franchise in the National League, composed of players over the last 25 years. The way this works is that I pick one player from each season and I have to fill out an entire roster (2 catchers, 2 infielders at each position, 6 total outfielders, 5 starting pitchers, 4 relievers). I can't take more than one player for each year, I have to take one player each season even in the bad years, and I can't use the same player for multiple positions. If a player played the majority of his games at one position, I can't use that season for another position even if he's played it before. And I used basically minimums of 60 innings or 250 PA's (prorated for strike seasons).

The interesting part with this are the decisions that have to be made, whether it is, "Dang there are some really nice outfielder seasons to choose from, who gets left out?", or, "Does this team even have two decent catchers in a 25-year span?", or, "This guy had so many great years - which one do I choose?" Sometimes a great year gets left out, sometimes a fluke, partial season gets tabbed for the team.

I actually posted the entire NL East and NL West on the SB Nation site Viva El Birdos, as well as a fully researched extended version for the Cardinals from 1910 to 1934 and (eventually) a post just like this at all of the other NL sites. You're welcome to pick apart my choices and make suggestions of your own. I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody.

P.S. After completing the whole process and receiving comments last week, I realized that I should have utilized both BP's WARP1 and B-R's WAR numbers instead of just WARP1 along with Win Shares and OPS+/ERA+. (Fangraphs' WAR numbers only go back to 2002, so that would not have helped.) There were a couple players with differences of 2+ wins, so there might be a couple head-scratchers. My apologies.

Star-divide

C – Mike Piazza (1997), Russell Martin (2008)

1B – Eddie Murray (1990), Eric Karros (1995)

2B – Steve Sax (1986), Jeff Kent (2005)

3B – Tim Wallach (1994), Adrian Beltre (2004)

SS – Greg Gagne (1996), Rafael Furcal (2006)

OF – Pedro Guerrero (1985), Kirk Gibson (1988), Brett Butler (1991), Garry Sheffield (2001), Shawn Green (2002), Matt Kemp (2009)

SP – Bob Welch (1987), Orel Hershiser (1989), Tom Candiotti (1992), Kevin Brown (2000), Brad Penny (2007)

RP – Jim Gott (1993), Scott Radinsky (1998), Jeff Shaw (1999), Eric Gagne (2003)

Notable exceptions: Mike Scioscia (1985), Paul Lo Duca (2001), Orlando Hudson (2009), Todd Zeile (1997), Casey Blake (2009), Jose Offerman (1995), Mike Marshall (1985), Kal Daniels (1990), Raul Mondesi (1997), Manny Ramirez (2008), Fernando Valenzuela (1986), Kevin Gross (1994), Chan Ho Park (2000), Odalis Perez (2002), Hideo Nomo (2003), Derek Lowe (2006), Jay Howell (1989), Takahashi Saito (2007)

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I’ll take 2004 Cesar izturis over 1996 Greg Gagne.

I like Cetera.

by G.Scott on Aug 4, 2010 10:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Ya I missed that, that was my bad.

I like Cetera.

by G.Scott on Aug 4, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not that I missed Beltre, but that you could only choose one player from each year.

It’s an interesting assignment to say the least.

I like Cetera.

by G.Scott on Aug 4, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh I see

Yeah, at first I thought that Orel (88) should be on there, then I saw that Gibson was there for 1988, so I thought that was fine.

"Stop exploding you cowards!!!"

by Ivdown on Aug 4, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is a really, really cool idea

I think you made some great selections.

"Stop exploding you cowards!!!"

by Ivdown on Aug 4, 2010 10:28 AM PDT reply actions  

This is an outstanding project

Sounds like fun. Thanks for posting this.

by Eric Stephen on Aug 4, 2010 10:28 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks

You should try doing something similar to what I did for the 1910-1934 Cardinals. Maybe not go through the full research part (took me over 50 hours to put it together), but looking back at the early days can be highly educational for you and everybody else on the blog.

Personally, I would look at 1935-1959 for your team. You get a peek at the 1930’s Bums (managed by Casey Stengel), then one of the best stretches in club history (18 of 19 seasons, .500 or better). And with all but two years in Brooklyn. (Try to find some pictures while you’re doing it; it really adds to the experience.)

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Aug 4, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is very interesting

How did you begin choosing players? Do you start with outstanding years — the MVP-type seasons that must be represented? Or do you start with the piss-poor seasons, like (for the Dodgers) 1992 and 2005, and choose the best from among the weak choices?

The Omar Moreno of this blog

by Humma Kavula on Aug 4, 2010 10:38 AM PDT reply actions  

The big seasons definitely get dibs

But you try to have as many great seasons as possible, so you might need to move an ‘88 Hershiser to make room for Gibson. This is definitely true for players with only 1 or 2 worthy years to talk about. Also, years with two or three great players (or one of the few good years from a specific position) get tricky, like the Astros in 2005 with Clemens, Pettitte and Oswalt.
I try to make room for excellent relievers, but their roster spots often get used to fill in the gap for a bad year (I’m sure Jim Gott wasn’t on anybody’s must have list). The dead seasons definitely stick out and you try to see who you can get by with without sucking down a truly great player to fill the hole.
Players that have multiple good seasons, but no truly outstanding years (think Mark Grace, Ray Lankford) kind of get tossed around and have to make do with only a pretty good season.
More than anything I look for seasons/positions where I’m really limited and spots where there are lots of options or they all kind of blur together in terms of quality.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Aug 4, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am a huge fan of Mike Scioscia’s 1985 season (age 26, 77 walks against 21 strikeouts, .407 OBP, second in the NL to Pedro), but can’t argue with his ommission, especially since Pedro Guerrero’s greatest year was recognized.

I suppose you could make a case for:

Mike Scioscia (1985)
Pedro Guerrero (1987)
Chad Billingsley (2008)

instead of…

Russell Martin (2008)
Pedro Guerrero (1985)
Bob Welch (1987)

but it’s quibbling at this point.

This is a fun exercise.

by Eric Stephen on Aug 4, 2010 10:48 AM PDT reply actions  

IIRC

Guerrero’s ’85 might have been the biggest by a Dodger outfielder in this era, so I probably latched onto that.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Aug 4, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

No question

I imagine there are some tough choices like that, and I appreciate wanting to include the very best of the best seasons.

by Eric Stephen on Aug 4, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Damn Cardinal fans

make that whole “Best Fans in Baseball” thing really hard to dismiss.

Well done.

by prosellis on Aug 4, 2010 1:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Wow

incredible project, this must have taken a lot of time to produce. thanks for doing it!

by LA Taco on Aug 4, 2010 3:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Cool beans

wish I’d thought of it. Hard for me to accept that 25 years means most of my years are not represented. Luckily we got the 88 Orel in there.

This would be fun to do in blocks then have the teams play each other using Xeifranks simulator.
2009 – 1985
1984 – 1960
1959 – 1935
1934 – 1910
Stop there

I think the 1960 – 1984 and 1935 – 1959 would easily be the two best teams but it will be fun to fill them using TBLA readers for input. Looks like a great winter project.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Aug 4, 2010 3:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Can we institute manager tendencies for the teams and we’ll use Leo, Walter and Tommy. We’d get swept if we were forced to use Joe vs. Tony.

Google before you Tweet. It's the new Think before you Speak.

by G.Scott on Aug 4, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I did this a couple months ago. Most notable thing is that I seriously debated putting Oscar Robles on the team (I settled for Izturis ‘cause I needed a utility guy) , and that there’s way too many years where the Dodgers have no one. That and I honestly wished I could put Jim Gott on the list multiple years

Lineup:

SS Rafael Furcal 06
LF Gary Sheffield 00
C Mike Piazza 96
3B Adrian Beltre 04
1B Eddie Murray 90
RF Shawn Green 01
CF Matt Kemp 09
2B Steve Sax 86

Rotation
SP Kevin Brown 03
SP Orel Hershiser 85
SP Hideo Nomo 95
SP Chad Billingsley 08
SP Tim Belcher 88

Bench
C Mike Scoscia 91
OF Raul Mondesi 97
OF Pedro Guerrero 87
IF Eric Karros 99
IF Cesar Izturis 05

Bullpen
Eric Gagne 02
Takashi Saito 07
Pedro Martinez 93
Alejandro Pena 89
Jim Gott 92
Todd Worrell 94
Scott Radinski 98

by regfairfield on Aug 4, 2010 3:54 PM PDT reply actions  

For kicks I looked up Billingsley 08…I greatly dislike that his ERA went down 0.17 but his ERA+ took a hit.

Seems odd.

Google before you Tweet. It's the new Think before you Speak.

by G.Scott on Aug 4, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Park factors. For whatever reason Dodger Stadium played as a hitters park for three or four years then came back in 08.

by regfairfield on Aug 4, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Having the Beltre 2004 season

really fills out the infield. Not much to work with other then that season from 3rd.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen

by Phil Gurnee on Aug 4, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

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Pos No Player 2012 Salary
C 17 Ellis $490,000
1B 7 Loney $6,375,000
2B 37 Herrera $375,082
3B 6 Hairston $2,250,000
SS 9 Gordon $485,000
LF 23 Abreu $401,311
CF 10 Gwynn $850,000
RF 16 Ethier $10,950,000

OF/1B 33 Van Slyke $388,197
2B/3B 3 Kennedy $800,000
OF/1B 30 Sands $375,175
IF 13 DeJesus $448,992
C 18 Treanor $850,000

SP 22 Kershaw $6,000,000
SP 58 Billingsley $9,000,000
SP 29 Lilly $12,000,000
SP 44
Harang $3,000,000
SP 35 Capuano $3,000,000

CL 74
Jansen $491,000
RHP 52 Lindblom $483,000
RHP 51 Belisario $414,426
RHP 54 Guerra $488,000
RHP 28
Wright $900,000
LHP 57 Elbert $488,500
RHP 60 Coffey $1,000,000

DL 27 Kemp $10,000,000
DL 21 Rivera $4,000,000
DL 12 Sellers $481,000
DL 5 Uribe $8,000,000
DL 55 Guerrier $4,750,000
DL 14 Ellis $2,500,000
60DL 36 Hawksworth $495,000
60DL 41 De La Rosa $485,000

AA 50 Eovaldi $7,885
AAA 56 Antonini $7,869



Manny $8,087,432 deferred


Andruw $3,375,000 deferred


Pierre $3,050,000 deferred
Furcal $3,000,000 deferred
Kuroda $2,000,000 deferred
Garland $1,500,000 option buyout
Blake $1,250,000 option buyout
DFA 66 MacDougal $650,000

Totals
$115,942,869

For more detailed information, click here.

Current 40-man roster count: 42
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