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Around SBN: Ryder Hesjedal Wins Giro d'Italia

Jansen, Lee, Rubby and the Nature of Challenging Pitchers


I'm of the opinion that pitching prospects need to be challenged, and I'll explain why.

Star-divide

The main issue with pitchers as opposed to hitters is the nature of "stuff". A pitcher's "stuff" most commonly refers to the velocity and movement of his fastball and the movement on his offspeed pitches. Sometimes, you run across a pitcher whose stuff is simply too good for the competition he's facing to challenge. Occassionally, a pitcher's stuff won't be challenged at all by any level of minor leaguer hitter and the talent evaluators don't really know what they have until he runs into Major League hitters. A problem we run into when putting our hopes on the minor league production of players like...

...Kenley Jansen. A converted catcher, his bat simply wasn't good enough against even Rookie or Low-A pitching, never having an OPS over .700 at any minor league level. Turned into a pitcher, he has a blazing 97mph fastball and a newfound cutter that is still thrown in the 92-94mph range. In a matter of months, Jansen was setting AA on fire with 16.7K/9 and a 1.67ERA. His stuff is simply too good to be challenged by minor league hitters. Fast forward to mid-2010 and Jansen's stuff is still playing well as he lights up Major League hitters to the tune of a 0.67 ERA and 13.7K/9 rate in 27 IP. However, once the league was given a couple months and an offseason to both see his stuff live and to develop patterns and tendencies through video studies (I'm going to throw fastballs now), they adjusted to him. His K/9 is still sky high at 15.3 because his stuff plays, but it's the fine-tuning of things such as offspeed pitches, consistent mechanics and, by extension, location of his stuff that is going to determine if Kenley Jansen becomes a Major League stalwart or the next Juan Cruz. If the goal is to see if Kenley Jansen can develop location and an offspeed pitch, he needs to do so in AAA where results don't matter as much as progress. If the goal is to see if Kenley Jansen can get out hitters with the stuff he has now, he needs to be in Los Angeles working with Major league coaching against Major League hitters. His domination of the minor leagues based purely on stuff is something I expect from...

...Zack Lee. Lee is a talent who, despite his age, has stuff that is dominating Low-A already. A hard fastball with two plus offspeed pitches, Lee's stuff appears to be too good to correctly determine his talent level against Low-A offenses. He needs to be moved to AA and allowed to struggle, likely the first time in his life, to both see how he adjusts to older competition and adversity. His walks are a little high for my liking, sure, but that's mostly nitpicking on a pitcher fresh to professional baseball dominatinga  league full of players two years older than him. I don't think there is an issue with moving him up too quickly and it stunting growth because I find that while hitters need to slowly advance against increasingly difficult offspeed pitches, pitchers tend to rise and grow with the level of their competition. Meaning, if a hitter can't hita  MLB curveball, he won't be able to hit in the Major Leagues. If a pitcher can't get out a MLB hitter with his curveball, he'll be forced to learn to locate it better, adjust it's delivery (velocity, trajectory, what count it's thrown in), or scrap it altogether. I would move Lee up to AA before his next start, taking the rotation spot of...

...Rubby De La Rosa. Stop me if you've heard this one before: Sinking fastballs at 97-100mph, plus changeup, above average curveball, Rubby's stuff is clearly otherworldly. He has been trending up with his K/9 and down with his BB/9 outside of his AA stint at the end of last year which I attribute to it being double his previous career high in innings pitched. Now back fresh in AA to start the season, Rubby has an 11.9 K/9 with a 3.0 BB/9. We are almost at the halfway point of the MiLB season, and he needs to be moved to AAA to see if his stuff plays in a ballpark similar to 40% of the NL West (Coors, Chase) against hitters either on their way into the division or on their way out. He has nothing left to prove at AA and should also be moved to AAA before his next start. He's a good example of how...

...hitters need to be coddled and brought along, while a pitcher, with the exception of developing a new pitch a la Mariano Rivera, basically is what he is. They may develop confidence in their stuff and begin to challenge the strike zone more the longer they stay in a lower level, which is a good trait to develop, but all they'll learn is that they can challenge hitters who are beneath them ability-wise. The real confidence is in being moved up a level and learning that you can challenge hitters at a level that was previously over your head. Before the month is over, I think Rubby should be a Tope, Lee should be on the Lookout, and the Dodgers front office needs to figure just exactly what they want out of Kenley Jansen then stick to that plan no matter what the Major league team's needs are. The only thing that is going to stunt Jansen's development more than not having a good coaching staff around him are the trips to and from Albuquerque. I hope he stays down and works with AJ Ellis on his all-around pitching game, or he stays in MLB and is allowed to work with what he has and see if that's good enough. Personally, I'd rather see him struggle and adjust in MLB than waste those fastballs in AAA, but I'd also hate for the guy to struggle and get booed like other struggling relief pitchers have in the last couple years.

Comment 53 comments  |  7 recs  | 

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Juan Cruz is in his 11th major league season with a career ERA of 4.11. I think most guys would give their pitching arms to have that career.

"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."

by Nolij on May 9, 2011 11:07 AM PDT reply actions  

But if Kenley Jansen becomes Juan Cruz, he would be a disappointment IMO.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t like it, because it would mean he’d play for a million teams, but where do you see his ceiling? Armando Benitez? I think that would be very optimistic. Hopefully, Kenley has his head on straighter, but it’s not like Baltimore counts him among their all-time legends. If he progresses to that point, we can count on maybe three good seasons before he goes on to be overpaid by the Mets and choke.

"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."

by Nolij on May 9, 2011 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

He, at the minimum, should be Guillermo Mota.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

by that I mean

solid setup man/closer in a pinch.

His ceiling is still undefined.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Guillermo Mota, 13 seasons, 3.87 ERA, 9 SV
Juan Cruz, 11 Seasons, 4.11 ERA, 3 SV

I think this is probably the best comp for various reasons. Hopefully, the Dodgers will see a greater percentage of KJ’s productivity.

"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."

by Nolij on May 9, 2011 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not going to argue about a specific guy, I more meant Guillermo was a good, solid reliever while Juan Cruz is wild, inconsistent, and gets by on a good fastball but shouldn’t be trusted in close games or in a competitor’s bullpen.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually

that’s exactly the guy I was looking for but couldn’t remember his name, so thank you.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 6:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

cool stuff

very interesting take.

Is the MiLB season half over already?

"Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die."

by Tommy Blackjack on May 9, 2011 11:12 AM PDT reply actions  

No only about 20% – 25% through.

by BFDC on May 9, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

sounds like a ton of the Dodgers staff was in Great Lakes this week

not just DeJon Watson, so soon enough we’ll see if any decisions were made

by Brandon Lennox on May 9, 2011 11:20 AM PDT reply actions  

Zach Lee might be on the Kershaw path.

by kinbote on May 9, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even if he was

Kershaw threw 97 innings in A ball and was more dominant than Lee has been. Lee has only thrown 30 innings. Its gonna be a little while. Don’t forget the Midwest league is a pitchers league and most of the batters haven’t even seen Lee a second time yet.

by BFDC on May 9, 2011 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

thanks

Even still, I’d say reaching AA this year would be a major accomplishment. That’s moving quickly. Would put him in the conversation for a 2012 cup of coffee (which seems remarkable) and 2013 ETA.

by kinbote on May 9, 2011 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

It would be

And as dominant as Kershaw was, even he didn’t make it to AA in his first year as a professional.

by Michael White on May 9, 2011 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

too bad

he hadn’t missed out in 2010 if he signed at a decent time. He could have gotten some innings under his belt in low A or R. I think that’s what could keep him in low A all year.

by Dodgerblue8188 on May 10, 2011 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

that being said

my gut tells me that both Zee and Gould will stay in LoA for the whole year. I think they will both struggle at some point in LoA, and i think the Dodgers want to see them both struggle and then rebound against LoA hitters before moving them to AA

by Brandon Lennox on May 9, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I expect them to stay as well, I’d just like to see them challenged. Moreso Gould than Lee, but I also see the rationale for keeping them down.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good stuff

Since you make the claim that hitters need to be coddled and pitchers need to be challenged, care to weigh in on which ones are more easily/dependably developed from within the organization? I always forget the old line about, “Develop pitchers, buy hitters.” Do I have it wrong?

by kinbote on May 9, 2011 11:21 AM PDT reply actions  

That’s right. Hitters make big adjustments at every level, whereas pitchers bring the same stuff to every level and just fine tune it. You can have a long swing in A ball and hit bombs on A ball pitchers, but your long swing needs to be majorly re-tooled if you’re going to hit in AA. A pitcher on the other hand can throw the same set of pitches at every level and kind of wait to see at what level he needs to start tweaking and adjusting. You just hope that along the way the command, comfort, etc is growing with experience too.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for this Gary. I wanted to ask you what your opinion is on Rubby’s delivery. He’s 6-1, 185 with a blazing fastball. I think his start against the Mariners is still up on Dodgers.com, but any reason for concern with his shoulder?

by Julio Nievas on May 9, 2011 11:31 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I’ll take a closer look later. I didn’t really get to watch that game.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ruh Roh

First let me say, I’m not worried about his frame. 6’1" is plenty tall and 185 seems light for what he looks. That being said, on this clip I want to point out the difference between him throwing his fastball (0:17) to strike someone out vs. the offspeed pitch (can’t tell if it’s a hard change or a curve without much break, either way he got away with one, but not the point here (1:05). Notice on the offspeed pitch his arm circle on the back side is much much shorter and his body isn’t at the same pace as his fastball. Not only is this dangerous as far as hitters picking up the difference and sitting on the fastball if he has a long arm on the back and an aggressive motion, but having that short of an arm circle while throwing any pitch, let alone an offspeed pitch, is asking for arm problems. I’d much rather him slow down his fastball mechanics a bit to match his offspeed pitch delivery/aggressiveness while extending his arm circle on the offspeed pitch to match the fastball arm path. We’ll have to wait and see.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I realized I didn't put a link to the video

but now I’m at work and can’t do it. If no one else can put it here, I’ll do it when I get home. It’s pretty obvious on film though and really jumped out as something amiss.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I only bring it up because I thought he missed a start in the spring because of a minor shoulder problem. Hope it doesn’t evolve into something bad.

by Julio Nievas on May 9, 2011 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I find it disconcerting mostly because I did the same thing. Slider got filthy by choking the arm circle but it made for some bad times later. Basically, if you don’t keep the same arm circle and delivery aggressiveness on every single pitch you risk becoming readable and also putting strain on different parts of your arm/body depending on what which you throw.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow

Don’t almost all pitchers go through it, though?

by Julio Nievas on May 10, 2011 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

The ones who have long, healthy careers don’t. It’s why it’ so important to wait until a kid has an established, healthy, long arm circle before you teach them an offspeed pitch at too young of an age.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 11, 2011 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dont see

the advantage really of a top prospect playing in such a hitter friendly park/environment. 10 years ago year AAA was where you wanted guys to come from but the minors have changed and you are consistently seeing guys jump from AA. AAA is now filled with veterans that may be needed for a bench role AAAA players and the occasional player here and there that needs more seasoning after taking a longer route to develop. Just look at the dodgers AAA roster and you realize only one player on that staff can have a major impact. That guy is elbert and he still has control issues. Others on the 40 man can be decent. Position wise really only Gordon and Robinson can be starters accompanied by others like Hoffman who could be a good 4/5th outfielder. AA has changed and is continuing to see good talent. I like the fact that pitchers can play in a ballpark that is reasonable while facing players with high cielings and compete instead of trying to pitch in so many hitter friendly parks.

by Camronj on May 9, 2011 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

I don’t see the advantage really of a top prospect playing in such a hitter friendly park/environment.

If they are going to be of any use to us they’ll have to play 36/162 games in Coors and Arizona anyway, what’s different. Finding out if a pitcher can handle parks of all shapes and sizes is important too.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

It depends on where they are at in there career

if you have a kid on the fast track I would rather they make there mistakes while throwing at the Major League level. It may be simply about confidence and failing knowing you made your mistakes at the highest level. If they took that extended route then AAA is probably a better option.

by Camronj on May 9, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem with that is that at the Minor League level, the process and the progression are the focus. Once you’re on a MLB roster, your results are all that matters.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

that is true

but the way AAA is now is set up are you really progressing when the top talent and guys with the highest ceilings are now starting to be stash and the jump off point is AA. The question is would you rather learning to make adjustments against top talent or learning to make adjustments against guys who are down there to be defensive replacements and fighting to be 4th or 5th OF

by Camronj on May 9, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

keep in mind that all those has-beens, the Dana Evelands, have all had better careers and been more successful than anyone who hasn’t yet made it out of MiLB.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is exactly DeJon’s opinion.

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.

by meercatjohn on May 9, 2011 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

That DeJon is a smart dude.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I could be wrong, but I feel like if they wanted to see Rubby in AAA he would already be there.

by BFDC on May 9, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn't Albaquerque make Coors look like a pitchers park?

You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view--until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.

by nolander on May 9, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Please keep in mind

I’m not saying any of this will happen, only that I think it should happen. Even as fast-tracked as he was, I have a feeling if Clayton didn’t have a 6.2 BB/9 in AA in 2007, he’d have been called up even sooner. Lee has shown no such control issues.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 9, 2011 12:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Colorado/Arizona
they’ll have to play 36/162 games in Coors and Arizona anyway

Don’t they play a total of 18 games in those 2 parks not 36? Big difference.

by PastyRasta on May 9, 2011 8:57 PM PDT reply actions  

You’re right on the numbers, but there is also the bandboxes of Cincinnati and Philadelphia, plus probably a couple good hitters park that Dodger pitchers will have to deal with annually in the NL.

@davidyoungtbla - The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.

by David Young on May 9, 2011 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’re correct.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

but

18/162 is still 11% of the MLB season, and doesn’t include the other hitters parks.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

So this post

is an “SB Nation Los Angeles Editor’s Pick” and yet I’m the first to rec it? Man, y’all really don’t want to risk giving G.Scott an even more swollen melon, do you?

Nicely written point of view.

@davidyoungtbla - The commenter formerly known as El Lay Dave.

by David Young on May 9, 2011 9:56 PM PDT reply actions  

It is?

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

at the top of the page, brah

"The Dodgers are such a .500 team that if there was a way to split a three-game series, they'd find it." - Vin Scully

by Maddz on May 10, 2011 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

:)

cool

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 10, 2011 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I will say this about the possibility of rushing pitchers

You run the risk of them being challenged, failing, then where they once attacked the strike zone now begin to nibble and walk guys because they’re either scared to throw inside or are afraid of elevating a breaking pitch that they used to get away with just because it was a good pitch. But, that’s when you find out if they are marshmallows, jelly beans, or rocks.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 11, 2011 7:11 AM PDT reply actions  

I know it’s way late, but a fine post and it spawns a good discussion.

by Gen3blue on May 23, 2011 8:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks, appreciate any feedback you all may have.

No Rafael Furcals were hurt in the making of this video.

by G.Scott on May 23, 2011 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

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SP 58 Billingsley $9,000,000
SP 29 Lilly $12,000,000
SP 44
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SP 35 Capuano $3,000,000

CL 74
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RHP 51 Belisario $414,426
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RHP 28
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AAA 56 Antonini $7,869



Manny $8,087,432 deferred


Andruw $3,375,000 deferred


Pierre $3,050,000 deferred
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Kuroda $2,000,000 deferred
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